Buffy
post! (NSR SPOILERS)
Date: 01/02/2003
From: Informant
I never got to reply to the last Buffy conversation, but things are calming down for the moment, so here I go. (I'm also gonna add a new theory in here somewhere). Each of you will get a fancy numbered reply!TM,
0. Marti isn't my favoritest writer ever, but I liked the episode. That includes the last half.
1. I don't think Giles is dead either. But I think it's possible that he could have died at some point and the First is taking his form (if not the First Good). This is where my new theory comes in. Upon rewatching "Grave", I noticed something. In one scene, Anya is over Giles, who is at death's door. Then, the next time we see them is when Willow's magic falls apart. Anya is sitting on the shop's step, crying, her head in her hands. Giles sits up and Anya's reaction is "You're not dead! Why aren't you dead?".
Why would Anya be so surprised? Would she have just left Giles to die alone while she went to cry? Nope. Perhaps Giles did die there, and when the magic was falling apart, his energy somehow came back to him and brought him back. Just a theory.2. I think it's possibly he will. It was already implied at least once in "Amends" and then the question of God was brought up in "Conversations With Dead People" and we learn that Buffy hasn't figured it out yet. Joss may not believe in it, but he doesn't believe in any of what he writes on the show. It only makes sense for some sort of First Good to exist. He'd never define it as the Christian God, or anything like that, but there has to be a balance on the show. There can't be so much evil without there being as much, if not more good. Buffy just has to find that power and use it. (kinda like she did in my Buffy movie script in her fight with the First :-) )
3. If Willow stopped using magic cold turkey, the pressure would build inside of her and she'd pop. We saw that happen once and it possibly resulted in the death of Giles for a moment! (hey, I have to support my own cause) That would have happened eventually, even if Tara hadn't died. But Willow is learning to live without magic now and I think that's what her arc should be here. Learning to tap into the power that is Willow, instead of this supernatural boost. I think It'd be much more poweful in terms of plot to have her save the day by using her mind. Not sure how, but that's what I'd like to see. Maybe by figuring out what the First is doing and working to make a plan to counter the attack.
4. It's possible that Willow isn't as confused as I'd like her to be (the confusion I am thinking of isn't just sexual). However, it should play some role. Just general confusion at this point. Now, there are many other reasons to not support the relationship. Kennedy must just be a kid. Willow shouldn't even be thinking of dating right now, with all that's happening, not even counting Tara's death. Plus, Kennedy is a skank and I don't like her too much. She's known Willow for all of three seconds, right? Not Willow's type, male or female.
5. Yeah. He used to be big for a while there. Now he's slimming down again. I think he was ordered to.
6. Okay then.
7. A little, but she looked different. I haven't seen her look quite like that before. Some people say it was just her being all weak and vulnerable and guys like that. But I think there was something in how they made her up that day.
8. Remember, it's not Dru. Spike said that Dru was way crazier. Maybe the First just doesn't get our favorite baddie. A lot of the Dru stuff didn't feel like Dru. But I don't think it was supposed to. Like when it takes Spike's form or Buffy's. You can tell it's not them usually, just by how it's written and acted.
9. It'll be interesting to see. But I think it's too soon after Willow's turn to the dark side to have Buffy fighting the Scoobies.
The First took over Willow for a second when she did magic, and she was able to use Willow to hurt people. So what would happen if the First tried to use another witch, like Amy?10. I like the ubervamp. I think he's interesting. I'm not sure how long he'll last, or if my interest in him will last much longer, but I think that he's a good minion so far. Imagine if a whole bunch of them were released into the world. We'd have Buffy having to fight some vampires and having a hard time of it, just like the olden days.
Okay, since I keep losing my replies to this topic, I'm gonna post this and then reply to others.
SL4ever
and Recall317...
Date: 01/02/2003
From: Informant
1. Thanks for making me think about the book thing. I hadn't before, but it's interesting. I'm not sure if Buffy still has the book when she wakes up. I don't think so, but I'm not sure. The interesting thing is that the book is the Watcher's Codex. It's interesting because Giles(or watever) later shows up with a lot of books about not only the First, but also the Watchers. Possibly the Watcher's Codex? Another connection between Joyce and Giles this year.2. I agree with you. See my reply to TM.
3. Willow doesn't always rule for me. I haven't liked he much for a while. But this year, she's winning me back. When she's in the alley, confronting Andrew, I got the geek vibe from her. That was such a happy moment for me. I love the geek-power they had going in the early seasons with her and Xander. I still hope that her "back to the beginning" arc this year is to her brains. We know she can do wonders with special fx. But I want to see Willow save the say by herself. It would just thrill me.
4. A lot of people say it looked like the Angel thing. But I don't know if there's a connection there. It was the same image we saw of the First back in season 3. (described in the script as an "Angel of death" looking thing)
5. Very possibly right here. About Giles not being able to live in the house without touching anything. But I'll see what happens. He was acting strange, and I think that after a few thousand years of practice, it could learn to blend in pretty well.
It could go either way. Which is why the Giles thing is so much fun!6. Pike became a has-been actor who's only claim to fame was a horrible 1990's prime-time soap in which he played a teenager with a receeding hairline (or was that Ian Zering?). He tried to bring his career back from the dead, but he failed and now he's just a weird looking evil creature who must be stopped at all costs.
Recall317,
1. The episode wasn't meant to be a stand-alone though. I get what you mean about the season 6 episodes... it's why I don't like Drew Greenberg's first episode, "Smashed". It did nothing except show us what happens between real episodes. But "Bring On The Night" had all the things an episode needs to be a real episode for me. A baddie to fight, which was the ubervamp (a continuing baddie still counts). And it also had a lot of stuff to play into the rest of the year. Episodes like this have been happening since the first season, I think.
2. I disagree when you say that you can watch any season 2 or 3 episode without needing to be caught up a lot. Those seasons were as arc-heavy as any. Try watching even "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" (a pretty stand alone episode) without knowing anything that's happened, and it'll make very little sense. Or "Choices" in season 3, which was on the same level as "Bring On The Night" in terms of how the episode played out, centering on the recurring baddies and the continuing arc. The thing that set season 6 apart was just that how they presented the stories in each episode changed. There was usually a bad guy to play off of, like always. But the themes were much less metaphor and much more out there in the front of everything. It was different, but I don't think it reached 90210 style soap levels.
3. True that they should notice Giles not touching anything. But why would they? Why would they have any reason to watch what Giles does. They don't know that he ever died (though I guess Anya might kinda if my theory holds), and they trust him a lot. I don't really watch the people I am around to make sure they open doors or pick stuff up. I'd probably just assume they were touching stuff when I wasn't there. If Giles moved around a lot, not spending so much time with one person that they could know his every move, then I think it's possible.
4. I agree, Buffy should have brought a weapon. Like the rocket launcher that there's no good reason for her to still have, but I guess she does because Drew Greenberg put it in one of his episodes. And yeah, there had to be a reason for the sensible mini-slayer to run off. We just don't know yet. Maybe the First came to her and spooked her.
5. Part of it is backlash, I'm sure. From Tara's death, or the gloomy tone of last season (which UPN is over compensating for in their goofy commercials for the show). But also, a lot of people lost UPN stations this year. It annoys me that no reports are taking that into account when saying Buffy is slipping. Ask a few people from this board even. I know some have lost UPN this year. If people can't watch the show, the ratings will drop.
Banker
Date: 01/02/2003
From: Informant
Banker,1. Yeah, it could be like the Dawn thing. Or maybe not. If it is, they are playing it smart and treating the fans smart by not making it obvious. I don't think they started the rumors online themselves if it is fake though.
2. I want Robin Wood (tis his name) to be good too. I hope he is. But then, I was hoping he'd just be a normal Joe Nobody too. Since he has to be involved somehow, he'd better be good!
I guess I could have put this in my last reply, but I thought there was something else for me to reply to. Guess not.Anyway, I did it! Replied to the old thread before the new episode Tuesday! Woohoo!
I
still think they'd notice
Date: 01/02/2003
From: Recall317
"Giles, pass me the salt.What do you mean you can't? Oh, you're incorporeal because of jet lag. Sure, sounds reasonable enough."
:)
Nah, I hope Joss is just funning with us and Giles is really Giles cause no amount of 'splainin's gonna 'splain that. It doesn't ruin anything for me though. Buffy has its share of internal discontinuities, however, the staff truly cares about the product and tries really hard to keep those to a minimum.
Unlike a certain show we all know. ;)
R317
It's
about degrees
Date: 01/03/2003
From: Stax_
Buffy has always had strong inter-episode continuity but neither S3 or S2 had the level of arciness S5 and especially S6 had. I can think of maybe 7 episodes from S3 and S2 that would be entirely confusing to a newbie and twice that number of episodes that have only the mildest of barings on the rest of the show.I think 'BBB' would make perfect sense to a new viewer. It has an internal plot with a middle, beginning and end. Sure, some moments wouldn't have the same resonance with a new viewer that they would have with an old one. And yes, the beginning feeds from previous events and the end influences future ones. But it's a complete and satisfying dramatic entity outside that because it creates and resolves a situation within its 45 minutes. 'Choices', while being an arc episodes, has that structure too. They find out about the box, they steal it, Willow is captured, they trade off. Ignoring the recaps, everything you need to know to understand the episode is contained within it.
This isn't as true for season six. There are episodes like 'DoubleMeat Palace' and 'All the Way' but they're the exception, not the rule. Stories were begun in one episode and ended in another, to a much greater extent than in previous seasons (Part of me thinks that's because they didn't have enough story for 22 episodes). Way back when, you'd have an event and it's fallout in the same episode e.g. 'Revelation', now it takes two e.g. 'Entropy' and 'Seeing Red'.
Another reason S6 feels so arcy is because the writers put so much emphasis on how episodes with strong stand alonish elements fit in the arc. 'As You Were' and 'Gone' are good examples. Both have self-contained plots and both are concerned with their place in the bigger picture. Both resolve issues within the terms of the episode and the arc. And both, in doing so, devote HUGE chunks of the first two acts to reiterating points made in previous episodes, boring the regular audience to tears.
I don't know which approach is better but I know which is easier. Self-contained episodes create and release a dramatic tension. Arc episodes, which on 'Buffy' are less structured, can't create that tension as well. So they have to wing it on the strength of the individual scenes and the moments that comprise them. So if you have an arc episode and a self contained one, both with scenes of equal strength, the self contained one with it's climax is going to win out.
I can't see why the writers are making it so hard on themselves.
The shift from metaphors to the prosaic is probably the reason why S6 is the most unsophisticated of all 'Buffy's' seasons. In S6 the writers forgot why they were writing for a fantasy show, and worse, why they were writing for 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'.stax
Replies...
Date: 01/03/2003
From: Informant
Recall317, I still say it could go either way. For all we know, Giles told the slayers that they all had to take different planes to avoid one massive attack and ensure the slayer line. We don't know enough specifics to say what is what just yet. And then, if Giles only spends a few minutes at a time in a room with certain people, they'd never have time to notice that he's acting weird and not touching anything.I'm just saying it's possible. If I were Buffy or Anya I probably would have been able to tell by the lack of a hug. They're the closest he has to kids on the show (more so than Willow, Xander or Dawn, I think). But again, it's got a lot to do with where he is, for how long, and what he's doing there. Try going a day without touching anything in front of people. You can lean, you can sit, but you can't interact with any objects around other people (alone you can). See if they notice.
Stax_, it is about degrees, I agree. First, I say that "Bring On The Night" had a self contained story. It was part of a bigger arch as most episodes are, but there was a bad guy and all of that. It left stuff hanging (more so than most this season), but not so much that it deserved a "To Be Continued" attached to it.
Now, season 6 is a more complicated issue. There are episodes like "Smashed" where nothing happens in the episode that you can talk about... there's not logline for it. You can't blurb about "Smashed". You could say "Amy comes back", but does that really say what happened? It wasn't a really good episode because nothing happened, it was all like we were seeing something in between episodes. However, most of the episodes weren't like that. This is where the decress come in.
You have pure stand alone. Buffy really, really rarely does this. We're talking Star Trek levels here.
You have your semi-stand alone. Kinda draws on arcs, but not enough to confuse a newbie. This only happens sometimes.
You have your stand alone/ arc story hybrid. Which possibly makes sense to a newbie, but it's not the main concern.
You have your arc story, which feeds from the past and gives to the future. Makes little sense to the newbie.
And then you have your hard core arc story that you really should be a regular viewer who pays attention to get. You could enjoy the pretty pictures otherwise, but it's really pointless to watch unless you know what's going on.
Then you have your 90210 soap where one story runs into the other and it's all a blob of nonsense.As the series went on, it got deeper into the arc stories. Season 1 had few. Season 2 had more. Season 3 had more. Season 4... not so much, but it was a vacation. Season 5 was really a woven story. Not one pure stand alone episode that didn't play into the arc (except maybe "Family" which wasn't a very good episode). Some you could watch without seeing others, but none that didn't play into the bigger picture.
Season 6 was more of the "you really should know what's happening" kind, but in my opinion, it never got to the 90210 nonsense story telling. It was a big arc, but it had direction. There was a purpose to all that happened. Season 7 is a lot like a combo of seasons 5 and 6. It has the direction and it has the connectedness of season 6, but the more Buffy-style story telling of season 5. A lot of arc stories because this is a very big arc (stand alones depend on there being room to get away from the arc for an episode).So yeah. Some seasons are way more arc-y than others. I don't mind the ones that aren't because if I wanted a show that you didn't have to see to understand, I'd watch more Enterprise or Voyager episodes and less Buffy episodes. This show has always been about the characters growing. It's about life. It's depends on the arcs. So the fact that there aren't as many newbie-friendly episodes doesn't bother me.
That said, I don't think most of the season 7 episodes have been like that. They've had a strong arc, but there have been quite a few episodes that people can just watch without a lot of catching up.
And season 6 wasn't that bad. "Gone" was not an episode that depended on the arc. Most of the themes were stated in the episode. I'd say there were probably 14 or so episodes that were connected to the arc, but could be watched without seeing the rest of the show. That's quite a bit. I mean, the first few, you only had to understand that Buffy died to watch them. And the bulk of the others had self contained stories that newbies could enjoy while regular watchers could get the arc more. (I haven't seen season 6 as much as others, so I'm just going from memory)Of course, I wouldn't suggest the big Willow episodes to anyone who hasn't seen the whole series. For me, that's one arc that you have to understand to appeciate and a lot of regular viewers don't even get a lot of what happened there.
Wait... wasn't this whole "no self contained story" supposed to just be about "Bring On The Night"? :-)
My
thoughts. (hope all had a good xmas!)
Date: 01/03/2003
From: eber3
I feel that Giles is dead. That axe was inches from his neck, and I never doubted that he was killed. I think they left it with that scene just to cause people to debate what should be obvious. That was obviously not Giles who came to Buffys house. Now it could be some kind of "the first good" as has been theorized, but I kind of doubt it. So far we have only seen the first evil take on the forms of the dead, so untill we get some proof otherwise I have to believe that "ghost Giles" is the first evil.As far as why people don't notice, we have seen the first play the parts of other characters and have people believe it is them. Perhaps he can influence peoples minds to a mild extent, that would help explain how he fools them with less then perfect performances. So, maybe that mild influence causes the gang to overlook him and his faults.
The new girls.... Who says they are slayers to be? So far only the fake Giles. What if they are evil? Perhaps "Giles the first" has brought them to Buffy, along with any needed books, to be trained only to have them become evil slayers. As far as we know all the watchers including Giles (most likely) have been killed off, so how is it that these mostly untrained girls escaped when their watchers didn't? Because they are really diciples of evil. Perhaps that is why Joice wanted Buffy to look in the Watchers codex, to find out about the evil slayer that balances the good one.
That could also be why Faith makes a come back. If the first needs a slayer to create and train his evil ones, what would he do if Buffy can't or won't do it? Why, fetch little miss hot pants (alghhhh... sweet sweet can)to finish the job.
I do think that the dream Joice is the real one, but that the one who appeared in the flesh (so to speak) to Dawn was the first playing tricks. Perhaps we will see a dream Giles as well?
Giles...
Date: 01/03/2003
From: Informant
I read the script that had Giles being attacked with the ax.Interesting note. The script says that the Bringer swings at the back of Giles' head, not his neck. Perhaps the First wants Giles alive?
Interesting thought about the slayers. But I kinda like the idea of Buffy training the slayers of the future. It makes so much sense, since she's managed to survive longer than most. Even if she didn't survive a couple times :-)
Gotta
think Giles is alive
Date: 01/03/2003
From: Recall317
Ah...ah...ah...staying alive....It's hard to spin off Giles into his own show if they've killed him.
R317
'Gone'
was CRUCIAL to Buffy's arc
Date: 01/04/2003
From: Stax_
It was the first step in her incremaental climb back into living. Considering that S6 only did character arcs, you can't ignore its significance. It was a self contained episode that resolved a thread of Buffy's arc i.e. her desire to be dead.Here's the problem: Stand alone episodes create and resolve an issue within their 45 minutes and have a beginning, middle and end. But in 'Gone', Fury wants to resolve an aspect of Buffy's continuing arc. So in order to create a coherent stand alone episode that also resolve an ongoing issue, Fury devotes a sizeable portion of the first half to reiterating a point: Buffy hates her life. The thing is WE'VE KNOWN THAT FOR THE LAST 8 EPISODES. It's not so much that newbies find the episodes inpenetrable, that's just fan perception, it's that regular viewers are painfully aware of the arciness.
Why single out 'Smashed' for being formless? 'Seeing Red' and 'Flooded' are just as bad. The two 'Bargainings' are too when viewed individually. 'Entropy' and 'Dead Things' are to a lesser extent.
Buffy isn't about life, it's only about a part of it. The coming of age part.
And S6 IS that bad. In terms of plotting, predictability, pacing, structure, characterization, metaphor, themes and dialogue it's a shambles. Only S1 has weaker plotting and theme and only S5 has less metaphors. On every other count it's the worst. Overall, it's the worst by a large margin. I didn't feel this way watching it when it was airing or immediately after. It's just that under scrutiny almost every aspect of it falls to pieces.
I will post my replies to old posts. I promise.stax
Hey,
Angel's on DVD
Date: 01/04/2003
From: Recall317
Is it worth the $45?I'm thinking I'll give it a shot. If nothing else, it will fill in the Buffy 4th season holes and introduce me to the Powers That Be.
And if anyone who happens upon this post can answer me this, how come Buffy DVD compilations are so cheap compared to say Law and Order and TNG? Buffy's list price is around $55 (much less at Amazon) and I saw TNG going for over $100. Yikes! I'm hoping Sliders DVDs are in the Buffy range.
R317
More
replies from me
Date: 01/04/2003
From: Informant
Recall317, Giles' series could always be a prequel :-)Stax,
I'm not saying that "Gone" wasn't a crucial episode. It was. However, it'd be a challenge to find a stand alone episode from most of the seasons that didn't, in some way, form the bigger arc of the season. And like I said, as the years go on, they focus more and more on these arcs because they get bigger and bigger and you can't always fit stand alone episodes in. Stand alones are not an important part of this series. They are usually just there to vent a little steam between big dramatic episodes.The people I know who haven't seen the show, or have only seen an episode here and there do not usually like the show. Usually, they hate it. That is because the show depends on you coming back each week. People who jump in for one episode will have no idea what they're watching, and they'll hate it. Going through the general theme of Buffy's season 6 arc in "Gone" was not done to fill in new viewers, I'm guessing. It was done because they wanted to set up the theme for that episode, and build the drama. If they had started off without that recap, the climax of the story wouldn't have had the same punch to it.
I single out "Smashed" because there is really no story to that episode. There is nothing going on but the continuing saga of their lives. There is no defining plot to that episode. All of the other episode you listed had that defining plot.
"Seeing Red" was about the Trio getting orbs that would make them invincible.
"Flooded" was about the Trio's introduction, which showed them using a demon to gather funds for their plan.
"Bargaining" is one long episode. Most two-part episodes don't work as two single episodes because they are one big episode. How different is that from "Surprise" and "Innocence" (a two part episode, though given different names) or "What's My Line"? Each episode relies on the other or it's pretty pointless to watch either.
"Entropy" (I'm about to defend a Greenberg episode. Whoda thunk?) had an enemy. Anya. It was about her trying to get her vengeance on Xander.
"Dead Things" was about the Trio trying to frame Buffy for murder.I'm not saying that an episode has to have a new enemy who isn't a pre-existing character in order to make the grade. But how do you blurb "Smashed"? "Amy comes back. Willow begins to go too far with her magic. Spike hits Buffy. Buffy boinks Spike. And Xander and Anya have a scene or two too!"
What's it really about? Now, you could say it's part one of a two parter with "Wrecked", but is that really true? "Wrecked" followed up on the events of "Smashed", but no more so than a lot of episodes work off of the previous. "Smashed" didn't have a flow to it. It was all over the place and didn't really make an impression.I disagree when you say Buffy isn't about life, it's a coming of age thing. That is true because we picked up the characters when they were kids. However, the show is not limited to the coming of age theme. It's about all of the things that life throws at you. Buffy has become an adult and is now dealing with adult themes. It's not so much about growing up anymore, it's about living as a grown up. Functioning in this world. Buffy and the others still have some ways to go (doesn't everyone really?) but I think she's already come of age.
I can't really say much about what you say is wrong with season 6. Those are all opinion-based comments. People have different opinions, so I can't really see changing that fact.
I totally disagree with what you say about season 5 having less metaphors. I don't understand where that comes from at all. Season 5 was chock full of metaphors. From adoption to issues with life. Buffy battling a god just as her mom was sick and dying wasn't a coincidence. The whole year was about questions with family, becoming an adult, life and death. And "The Gift" wrapped each of those metaphors up perfectly. I don't see how it lacked metaphors. Especially when you say it had less than season 6.
The season 1 comment I agree on. Not that I dislike season 1, but the show was in the early stages. Getting the general idea of the show out there for people and also finding itself and it's style. Not a bad year, considering it hooked me right away, it just looks weaker compared to the rest of the show. Still better than most tv.Like I said, most of your feelings and comments on season 6 are opinion based. I can't change how you view it, so more power to you.
Recall317, again...Season 1 of "Angel" isn't too bad. A lot of stuff worth watching. But I still don't think I'll spend my money on it. Maybe if it's ever in the bargain bin or something.
As for the prices of Buffy DVDs... I think it's best not to ask questions that might attract Fox's attention to this obvious stupidity on their part. They could make so much more on these DVDs than they are, but for some reason, they decided not to. I'm not gonna raise any questions in their minds about it ;-)
I
have a theory...
Date: 01/04/2003
From: SL4ever
My theory about BT is pornographic!!!My theory is that Joss wanted them cheaper because so much of their core audience are teenagers who just can't shell out the $100 TNG and X-Files want. Bless him. :-D To top it off, Buffy has more special features than EITHER of those more expensive sets!!!
"And S6 IS that bad. In terms of plotting, predictability, pacing, structure, characterization, metaphor, themes and dialogue it's a shambles."
I'll go along with you on most of those points. I've called Season Six a 22 Act Play and I think that's the reason a lot of people hated it but that's the reason I loved it. We have thousands of hours of various TV shows with stand alone eps, I don't mind one season of one show that is very tightly hooked together.
Be that as it may, one thing I strongly disagree with is Season Six being predictable. A reflective viewer might have seen a couple of these things coming but all of them??
1) Giles finally leaving for a long period of time.
2) Tara breaking up with Willow.
3) Spike giving a stake of his own to Buffy. :-P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4) Warren changing from an immoral but goofy nerd to a murderer.
5) Tara's death.
6) Willow going OFF THE HOOK!!!
The last two were especially out of left field. Sure, the groundwork was laid for Willow to go off the wagon in a bad way but I don't think anyone expected her to be the season's Big Bad and to actually kill someone.
People can decry a lot of things about Season Six but I don't think predictable is a valid complaint.
Oh
you can change my opinion
Date: 01/05/2003
From: Stax_
I've completely reassessed both 'Buffy' and 'Angel' over the last year and that's in no small part due to other people's criticisms. 'Buffy' and 'Angel' fandom has developed my critical faculties in a way that my English literature course hasn't.Informant, I'm not saying the stand alone episodes are there for new viewers. I'm not saying that a recap would work instead of a proper beginning. And I'm not saying that the earlier episodes aren't linked at all. What I am saying is that S6 is bloated and clumsy where the earlier seasons were deft and economic. The ENTIRE first and large portions of the second act of 'As You Were' say precisely one thing: Gee, doesn't Buffy's life suck. Here is Buffy ironing. Here is Buffy cleaning greasetraps. Here is Buffy running for the rubbish collection. Here is Buffy being called smelly by a vampire. Now take 'Choices'. A couple of lines of exposition at the beginning to bring us up to speed. The rest is revealed to us within the context of the story e.g. the argument scene, the Willow/Faith standoff. It's a different level of dramatic writing.
Also, Buffy's arc in S6 has an emphasis put on it that we'd never seen before, so episodes like 'Gone' were going to at least SEEM like arc.
'Smashed' has no real story.
Neither does 'Seeing Red'. You said "Seeing Red" was about the Trio getting orbs that would make them invincible". They had about five scenes in it, albeit one quite lenghty. I would be surprised if that storyline took more than fifteen minutes of the episode, the search for them included. You forget the Willow/Tara scenes, the Buffy/Xander scenes, the Dawn/Spike scene, the rape scene, the Spike/Clem scene, Spikes farewell into the camera *snigger,snigger* and the Anya vengence gig all of which had NOTHING to do with the Troika.
'Flooded' has no real story, either. You said ""Flooded" was about the Trio's introduction, which showed them using a demon to gather funds for their plan." The Troika's influence isn't felt until act two. After that you have a Willow/Buffy scene, some Giles/Buffy scenes, the Willow/Giles argument, the Spike/Buffy scene and a big group scene at the end, all of which have NOTHING to do with the Troika. The Troika, their actions and their consequnces might fill two acts altogether.
Two-parters are one large story but the 'Bargainings' together barely form one. 'Dead Things' (which I love, by the way) and 'Entropy' (which I don't) are more defined by the events that take place in them than the story they tell.
What's the point of telling a coming of age story if you don't show the 'of age' part? Buffy may have been thrown into the adult world mid-season five but she only started ACTING like one at the end of 'Grave'. Sounds like that's been followed though in S7 which will propably be the last year (If not its central theme is reduced to nonsense).
Season 5 had ONE arced metaphor, Dawn as adoptee. That is all. The Glory/Ben/Knights of Byzantiam (sp?) stuff needs serious attention from a mallet to fit any real life situation.
>>> Buffy battling a god just as her mom was sick and dying wasn't a coincidence. The whole year was about questions with family, becoming an adult, life and death. And "The Gift" wrapped each of those metaphors up perfectly.
That's not metaphor, that's theme and juxtoposition. And 'The Gift' is the most overrated episode of 'Buffy' EVER.
SL4ever.
I agree. S6 is a 22 Act play. The problem is it only has enough story for about 16 Acts. They stretched it and it became tedious.
The concept is great. So is the concept of the Troika. So is the concept of the aimlessness of the characters being reflected in the narrative. Unfortuanately clever is not synonymous with good.
>> 1) Giles finally leaving for a long period of time.
Can't say. The news of ASH's departure was common knowledge 9 months before 'Buffy' began here.
>> 2) Tara breaking up with Willow.
Didn't spot it .
>> 3) Spike giving a stake of his own to Buffy. :-P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ME doesn't put down the kind of groundwork they did in S5 without cashing in on it. The sex I guessed, the specifics I didn't.
4) Warren changing from an immoral but goofy nerd to a murderer.
He sanctioned her death in the Troika's introductary episode. They were inevitably going to tumble in darkness. Considering the "theme" of the year, the idea that they would wreak havoc dispropotionate to their size in the grand scheme was hardly shocking.
5) Tara's death.
Predicted it in 'Smashed' when they included a lenghty and pointless scene between her and Dawn. Why was it included? Why spend this time on Tara when there are other characters the writers prefer going without? Because they want to off her and make her death mean something to somebody other than Willow. 'Dead Things' and 'OAFA' cemented this prediction. Of course it didn't matter since Tara's death was told with the kind of finesse normally reserved for necrophiliac porn.
6) Willow going OFF THE HOOK!!!
Made definite in 'Flooded'. I didn't buy 'Wrecked' mainly because it made no sense as a climax (Or as anything). It was designed as a red herring and so Willow could have an out. The writers might make idiotic decisions but they aren't idiots. They were GOING TO DO Dark Willow.
You didn't mention Xander jilting Anya which was predictable because it fit the season's real theme of 'they're all screw-ups' too perfectly. Or Willow and Tara ending in tragedy because in S6 nobody gets to be happy. Or Buffy being in heaven because 'Afterlife' had the Scoobies reference the hell Buffy MUST have been in 8 million times.
It's not like I could pin-point the exact minute of Tara's death or the circumstances surrounding Spuffy but it was enough to make the season the most predictable to date.
Recall
Don't buy 'Angel' s1. Just buy two sets of 'Angel' s2.stax
Yet
another reply
Date: 01/06/2003
From: Informant
SL4ever, I agree. Season 6 is like one long play. It is also, in a lot of ways, the final act in a play that started a long time ago. A lot of season 6 wasn't just building a new story, but finishing old stories. I agree with you. S6 gets a bad reputation, but I really liked it. It was off in terms of how the characters behaved and stuff like that, but that was the point. It was the season when they hit bottom. Like season 4 in that they themselves were the big bad (Willow a little more literally than the others).
Spaz, Okay, yes. They do state in a lot of the episodes that Buffy's life sucks. But this isn't a bad thing. It would be more annoying if it wasn't something that was constantly being thrown in her face. When life sucks, every day is a restating of that point. Every day is a reminder of just how crappy it is. Every single day. Believe me, I know this.
They did state it in a lot of episodes, but each episode had something different to offer to that "life sucks" theme.True that "Seeing Red" had a lot more going on than just the battle of the week. But you can't say that because of that, there was no plot to the episode. There was. There was a clear cut bad guy for Buffy to face in the episode. Not only that, but it set up the big bad of the season (Willow). It's not the first time that there has been an episode where the baddie of the week was only a part of the major happenings. The point is, there was a plot to the episode. There was a challenge to be met by Buffy, and it was met. This was not the case with "Smashed" where things just kinda happened.
The same for "Flooded". I know what you're saying, but I don't agree. Yes, there was more put into other themes of the year (not that it hasn't happened in episodes before) in the episodes, but for the most part they still had a challenge to be met for that episode. Something to go up against. "Flooded" had that.
"Bargaining" actually has a lot of plot in it. Not only do you have the biker gang tearing apart the town, which was a good story by itself, you had a pretty big episode which set the tone for the end of the season. Again, there is a challenge to be met in that episode, and it's met (unlike "Smashed" where there was a challenge at first but then it just kinda dangled there without being met).
Joss has said that the show is about life, which means that as long as they are alive, there will be new plots to deal with. It's theme is life, so it's central theme can't be blown until they're all dead and we're just looking at empty space, or until it gets totally stupidly written, which doesn't look to be happening any time soon. True, the major theme we've seen so far is Buffy's growth from a kid to an adult, but that doesn't mean that once that is over, the show must end (though it very well might). Buffy's life will continue to have it's challenges and she will continue to grow. That's what the show is about. It's not limited to the area we've seen so far by anything more than the character's age.
I seriously have to beg to differ on your comment about season 5 only having the metaphor of Dawn's adoption. I'd say that was probably the smallest metaphor. There were strong metaphors for how Buffy was learning to deal with the issues of life and death, and her having to become an adult. Her battling a god during the time when she was going through a lot of painful stuff in her life was a metaphor for the way people fight that same battle internally during times like those. Glory represented a lot, but that's complicated and I'm tired.
And her death was a huge metaphor for the end of her childhood. The death of the Buffy that was (a metaphor made clearer later with the talk of heaven... heaven representing her childhood). I could probably get into this more if it wasn't late and my brain was functioning. If I must, I'll do it later.I loved "The Gift" because it pulled the entire season together. It was full of metaphor. And it was just an exciting episode to watch.
Spaz
? Okay then
Date: 01/06/2003
From: Stax_
Would that be frustration at having the rug pulled out from underneath you or a reaction to someone daring to criticize 'Buffy'?My problem, which I will now have stated for the THIRD time, is that taking between one and two acts to tell us something we already now is BORING. Dull. Prosaic. Stale. Tedious. Monotonous.
>>> They did state it in a lot of episodes, but each episode had something different to offer to that "life sucks" theme.
Here is you chance to change my opinion. How did they vary this ?
So a plot can only arise when a challenge is met? That will be news to the romance genre and the war genre and the noir genre. Don't tell Chekov or Marlowe or Sartre or Chaucer. There goes 'Fool For Love' and 'Entropy' and 'The Wish'.
Plot is a pattern of events in a narrative and since we're talking about this in terms of self-contained stories, the pattern of events will have a resolution.
Plot is also the main story in the narrative. The story in 'Flooded' is more about Buffy's emotional numbness and that's told through a a collection of moments. The Troika is completely secondary to this. The Troika aren't used for contrast or for ANY clever purpose but to give the episode some semblance of drive. The whole thing has no real story, it's just a bunch of stuff that happened.
'Seeing Red' is worse than that and 'Smashed' is exactly like 'Seeing Red'. Both take a handful of plot threads, further them, let one have a climax (Warren's escape and Andrew and Jonathan's arrest, Spike/Buffy sex) and resolve nothing. The Troika plot you see in 'Seeing Red' is structered exactly like Spike and Buffy in 'Smashed', a series of events that lead to a climax.
Fury and Espenson have disagreed over the presence of Anya's soul. Noxon thinks Willow has no issues to resolve. Whedon said S6 central theme was 'Oh grow up'. Why don't I care that they're wrong. Because interviews with the writers are extra-textual. I form my opinions on 'Buffy' from watching 'Buffy', not from Whedon's interpretation of it. If Whedon is writing a show that is meant to be about Life and not Coming of Age, he's failing.
Why do you think S7, probably the final year, is being called 'Year One'? Because it's trying to provide circularity. So we can compare Buffy then and now. So she can resolve the issues, fears and insecurities that a person must shake off to become an adult. To provide closure to her story.
If Buffy does go on for another 49 years it probably would become about Life, what we have now isn't.
>> There were strong metaphors for how Buffy was learning to deal with the issues of life and death, and her having to become an adult. Her battling a god during the time when she was going through a lot of painful stuff in her life was a metaphor for the way people fight that same battle internally during times like those. Glory represented a lot, but that's complicated and I'm tired.
THAT'S NOT METAPHOR. That's justopsition. Glory stands for nothing. I've tried to look at her as a metaphor for one of the gods, as in Greek myths, that can ruin our lives if they so wish but then what does Ben represent. Then what does her pursual of the Key mean. Glory is a plot device to make Buffy sad.
And her 'death as end of childhood' metaphor only became apparent in S6, that is S6's metaphor, not 'The Gift's'.
'The Gift' is both exciting and pulls the year together. It also sets itself up as a piece of drama about moral choices, then opts out. The out is nonsense and comes so far out of left field you suffer whiplash. And that they were going to bring Buffy was so obvious, her death meant nothing. In fact it angered me.stax
Spaz?
When did she get back!!! :-)
Date: 01/07/2003
From: Slider_Sarah
That reminds me, I should email her sometime. And Stax, did you ever get my email? Lol :-)I'm not sure why I get drawn to these posts, since I only understand about half of what you talk about. Please allay my fears and tell me that some of what you were talking about was seaosn 7? Because otherwise I've missed some very important stuff. Season 7 starts here on Thursday, 8pm, and I am NOT gonna miss that. I've been waiting sometime!!
I don't know enough about things to intervene in your arguments, mostly because I can't name most of the episodes :-) And it's been a long time since I saw many of them(and i don't think I ever saw all of Family anyway).
personally, I'm very fond of arc stories, but every episode cannot be totally arc related, because then you lose sight of the casual viewer. This was what happened to me with Angel. I missed a couple of weeks, and suddenly I didn't understand a damn thing, and now I've missed a season or so I don't even recognise the show. Just one of those things I guess.
Although that said, Lexx did a season that was one long arc. Season 3. Granted that was only 13 episodes, and even then, I thought a couple of the episodes were filler.
Yet when there is no arc at all, people become disinterested.
Well, I still don't understand what I'm saying and I certainly can't compete with you guys. I'm only spouting this random stuff to avoid writing my essay entitled, "Who Were The Poor In The Period 1950 – 1970 and What Was Done To Ease Their Plight?" although I really should get some of that done now.
sarah.
slider_sarah@hotmail.com
Yikes!
Date: 01/07/2003
From: Informant
It's all this talk about the old days! It's got my mind all funky.Anyway, I'll read the reply now and reply to it.
Date: 01/09/2003
From: Informant
I wrote it up before, but lost it. I seem to be doing that a lot these days.Anyway, here it goes. A lot lot of this is stuff that I haven't tried to put into words before, it just made sense in my head. So don't point and laugh if it sounds bad. I'm gonna get back to my numbers. It's easier.
1. To me, "Gone" is very different from, say, "As You Were". Both go into the "Buffy's life sucks" theme, but each one has a different purpose in my eyes. In "Gone" Buffy's life sucks, so she tries to escape it. She tries to take a vacation from it, but she can't or she'll die. And this is where she learns that she really doesn't want to die. Her life might suck, but it's still her life. She wants to reclaim it, she just has to figure out how.
"As You Were" has the road not taken plot. The life she could have had. Married to a good man, fighting side by side, happy. She's in a horrible place in her life, and it didn't have to be that way. And she can't back up and take the road not taken because there's a big Samantha shaped tree blocking that road. It also helps her to reflect on the person she was, and needs to be again. That's why she finally ends it with Spike there. It's the first step to recovery. It's a slow process, and it takes a lot of time, but that's how it works. She can't just decide to change and have it happen all at once. It's hard, and it hurts.
The theme of "Buffy's life sucks" was painful to watch, but there wasn't an episode where I sat there thinking that they were repeating something they'd already said about it. They set up each story with the examples of why her life sucks (it continues to suck and things pile up, it's not always repeating the same things over and over), and then they play a different angle of that idea. I enjoyed it, actually.
2. A challenge to be met doesn't have to be a grand monster. Sometimes the monsters take the back seat, and that's okay with me. But "Smashed" didn't have any challenge to be met for that episode. Amy's de-ratted and then nothing happens. Spike can hit Buffy, but this isn't the focus of anything that happens in the episode. It's really a side-note. A challenge not met for another few episodes. Buffy and Spike have sex, but the episode doesn't really lead up to that. Some might connect the hitting to the sex, but I don't. Two different issues in my mind. The sex isn't an kind of climax (so to speak) for the episode. The Trio gets a diamond and then... nothing. I think Xander, Anya and Dawn might have been there too, but I can't promise. Willow parties with the magic, but nothing comes of that in this episode. And none of the episode has flow. It's all just jumbled together in a mish-mash of scenes that really don't lead anywhere.
"Flooded" might not have the emotional connection to the demon, but it still had something to latch onto in that episode. It had a lot of arc stuff for Buffy's situation, but there was still something to be resolved in that episode. And it was. It doesn't have to be the focus of the entire episode for me to enjoy it, but some kind of plot, some kind of challenge, something to make that episode describable is needed in my mind. Plus, you do have a contrast there one that runs through the entire Trio arc. You have Buffy trying to figure out how to handle things, and work out her problems, and you have the Trio trying to take the shortcuts, and make everything come to them. Buffy tries to work out a legal, normal way of getting money (though not the best way), and the Trio calls a demon to help them take it. The Trio is all about avoiding adulthood and trying to skip all the hard parts. That's the contrast.
"Seeing Red" isn't my favoritest episode ever. Frankly, I think that if Willow and Tara had been doing their jobs, Tara might have lived. They were stupid and when Tara died, it didn't feel quite as bad as it normally would have. I think they shouldn't have had Willow and Tara bedding each other for the whole hour, they should have just had Tara come back to the family as part of the team, not Willow's girlfriend. If she found a way to do that and still not be awkward with Willow, it also would have shown her being smarter because Willow was in no condition to be in a relationship. Also, it would have been more emotional to see her with the whole group again, and being the Tara we grew to love (even me, who hated Tara for a long time). They tried to make it more emotional by making it too sugary, and they devoted way too much time to that.
That said, the episode still did have a plot of it's own, and it did get resolved. When Buffy fought Warren and smashed his orbs, I didn't feel lack of closure for that plot. And I feel that enough time was devoted to that plot to make it a good enough plot for that episode (could I say "plot" any more than I did right there?) Plus we have Jonathan and Andrew being locked up, that's more closure to that... er... story.
Would you say "Bad Girls" had no plot? It was packed full of goodness, but it wasn't really about the hunt for Balthazar so much as it was the characters involved and what they were going through at the time. Still, the Balthazar plot added the much needed drive for the episode, and it's conclusion gave the episode closure enough.I don't get what you mean, "exactly like Buffy and Spike in 'Smashed'." The sex, or the hitting? The hitting is put on the back burner at the last minute. There is no climax to that story. They come close, but at the last minute, they go for the sex. And the sex isn't climax to the semi-plot of the episode. So it's all just left dangling. It goes nowhere.
3. I don't follow on the Anya soul issue. Either way, I guess they have to agree she has one now. D'Hoffryn took Halfrek's life and soul as payment for Anya's wish being reversed, so I guess that puzzle is solved. I guess vengeance demons wouldn't be as vengeance-y is they didn't have the scarred souls to power them.
Agree that Noxon isn't the best Willow writer.
However, what Joss says is the theme of the show must be the theme of the show. While you may see it differently, it really all comes down to how Joss pictures it because that's where the show comes from. If it's about life to him, then he isn't limited to the coming of age story. There's more to be told once Buffy's grown up. I agree with that, actually. I think the story would make as much sense with her fighting the demons of motherhood or being middle-aged as it did with her fighting the demons of high school. I don't think it's limited to her growing up years. If the show ends this year, I guess the show would have been the coming of age of Buffy Summers, but unless she dies, or kills the last demon on the planet, the story goes on. The show could go on for a long time. So I guess who is right in this part of the debate all comes down to when the show ends and how it ends and if it stays ended for good.4. This is going to be the hard one to explain. It's always made sense in my head, but I've never put it into words before. The metaphors of Glory, Ben and Buffy's death in "The Gift".
The battle Buffy was fighting in season 5 was against life. Glory and Ben represented the dark side of life (pain, suffering, death and all that) and the light side of life (healing, and living and loving). The yin and the yang.
Buffy was fighting Glory because she wanted to destroy the darkness. She wanted to end the pain and stop the evil. What she didn't realize that the bad was part of the good. You can't have one without the other, so if you want to kill the bad, you have to kill the good. In the end, Buffy couldn't do that (Giles killed Ben. I'm not sure if that's part of the metaphor, or just resolution to the story). The yin and the yang are part of the same picture. It's all part of life. Eventually, that's why Glory and Ben began to merge. The barrier was breaking down between them. Good and bad becoming one.In the end, Buffy tells Dawn that she finally gets it. That the hardest thing in this world is to live in it. That's because in order to live and be happy, you also have to live and feel the pain. Buffy lost sight of that, but in the end, she remembered.
Her death was her acceptance of that. Accepting death as part of life. That's why, once she realized what she had to do, she didn't skip a beat, she didn't cry, she didn't struggle. She'd accepted it.
5. Buffy's death was never meant to trick us. We all knew the whole time that Buffy was coming back and the writers knew we knew. That wasn't the point. Her death was part of her journey. Not the end of it, but part of it.
Original URL http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/545/4065719
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