Knowledge Discussion 1 Invention

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Yeontoo Moderator Posts: 597 (9/20/00 8:51:55 pm) Reply	Knowledge Discussion 1 Invention Yeontoo surveys the small partially shaded area on the old native dias near the center of the island, thinking to herself. Close to both camps and my stone chamber, ...plenty of seating on fallen logs, and raised a little above most the tree line ...as a place for our Sliderish "What If" history discussions, this would be a cool common ground. She reaches into her pack and takes out her ever-present clipboard. She pulls the top paper out of the clip and sets it on the old stone table, weighting it down with a small rock. The paper simply read: ======================= Topic of Discussion: What if the Wright Brothers had died in their attempts at achieving flight? Edited by: Yeontoo at: 9/29/00 4:12:59 pm
Sabre Edge Administrator Posts: 151 (9/20/00 9:07:33 pm) Reply	taking a seat... SE made his way to the ruins and took a seat on an old stone bench. He read the paper. ========== Like most inventions, flight was being worked on by a number of people in different areas of the world. They got interested in flight after reading about some glider guys death. I think flight was inevitable, Leonardo da Vinci had flight designs hundreds of years prior. Now what if they died? I think if they died it might have pushed back aviation development quite a bit. Recent deaths involved with the experimenting would probably discouage the other would be developers, or at least their wives and girlfriends enough to get them to stop. Flight wouldn't appear in WWI, excluding lighter than air balloons for observation. The golden age of aviation, between the world wars, would only show small work in aeronautics. WWII would have little air power displays, much like WWI. The question now is, who would be the first to flight? Glen Curtiss? Sikorsky? Boeing?
BritSlider Beginner Slider Posts: 5 (9/21/00 9:25:47 am) Reply	I think I'll join you.... BritSlider walked into the clearing, and saw Sabre_Edge musing over the piece of paper left by Yeontoo. -------------------------- I refuse to believe that the history of aeronautics would have been slowed down significantly by the death of the Wright Brothers. They weren't the only people working on powered flight at that time. In fact, if I remember rightly there was a lot of confusion over who actually had the first powered flight in history because it took so long for the news of the Wright Brothers achievement to reach the general public from the back woods of Kitty Hawk! It was only many years after the fact that they actually received official credit as being the first ones. Let's face it, flight was hardly a new concept. Ever since Da Vinci people have been dreaming up ways to get man into the air; nothing stands in the way of progress. But, let's play devil's advocate for a moment and say that their death would have had a significant impact. What then? Well, for one thing, I don't think that WWI would have changed dramatically; air battle during that time weren't overly significant. However, it was the period after then that things "took off" on the aviation front. There would have been far less demographic migration without aeroplanes to transport people about. People would not have taken so many foreign holidays, and society would have perhaps become much more insular. WWII poses a very interesting thought though: The BlitzKrieg tactics of the Germans involved heavy use of air power to soften up the defenders before the armoured units went in. With that part of their attack blunted woud they have been so effective in conquering Ploand and France so quickly? Also, no significance on air superiority would have aided their plans for the invasion of Britain. It was only British air superiority that kept them from coming across the English Channel to land an invasion force. If that had happened then America would have had no foothold with which to launch a second front on the Germans, if indeed they ever came into the war in the first place after that series of events! All in all though, I doubt if the death of the Wright Brothers would have ended up as anything other than a mere footnote in the annals of aviation history.
Sabre Edge Administrator Posts: 152 (9/21/00 3:37:59 pm) Reply	Re: I think I'll join you.... In your situation Brit, I don't think the US would have entered WWII. The ignition for the US was the bombing of Pearl Harbor which wouldn't be possible by the Japanese since no longrange flight power existed in this timeline. I think the US would have kept out largely because of their belief in Isolationism, eventhough Roosevelt wanted to combat the Reich. I agree that the US wouldn't be able to land on the European continent or launch bombing runs out of England if the English didn't have fighter planes to turnback the attack. Which goes to show we owe an awful lot to the RAF of WWII. But the question still remains, who then would be considered the "fathers of aviation"?
Missing Slider Ryan Novice Slider Posts: 175 (9/21/00 3:39:11 pm) Reply	Taking a stack of paper and a pen... MSR walked to the clearing and saw Brit and SE working on their discussion question. She sat at the opposite side of SE at the stone table. MSR went to work writing down her thoughts. ______________________________ The important advance of flight touches numerous aspects of daily life. What if the Wright Brothers had died in their attempts at achieving flight? The death of the Wright Brothers may lead other inventors to rethink their design plans, delaying the invention of airplanes. The possibility of a better design is conceivable as the Wright BrothersТ contemporaries studied their failed experiment. Sooner or later someone would have made a successful flight. The repercussions of a successful flight would be felt in other areas. Both Brit and SE brought up WWI and WWII as being affected by lack of airpower. In the absence of airpower, more ground troops would be needed, raising the number of casualties as well as dragging the war over more years or extend it into decades. There is a possibility that the development of thermonuclear devices would have been hastened. What better way to destroy the enemy when both sides lack the necessary airpower? Transportation of goods, medicines and food would also be affected. Intercontinental travel would be severely limited with the only mode of transportation being by ship. Foreign business would be difficult to coordinate due to the weather around the world. Businesses could not guarantee that shipments of supplies and goods would be on time. Newer faster ships would need to be designed. The onerous task of cross country transportation of goods, materials and people would lead to the development of faster means to get them to their destinations - trains, subways, cars, tanker trucks. This would probably lead to more deaths due to accidents with the pressure of time placed upon the system. MSR "Who wants to live forever?" There can only be one... fifth slider. Edited by: Missing Slider Ryan at: 9/21/00 9:10:11 pm
Vortex62 Administrator Posts: 451 (9/21/00 9:55:08 pm) Reply	Discussion Tex casually walked into the clearing sitting next to MSR and started to read: ееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееее What if the Wright Brothers had died in their attempts at achieving flight? ееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееееее Wow, that is an interesting "What If". I feel that man would have eventually would have discovered flight without the Wright Brothers. Just look at the first helicopter which was designed by Dr. George de Bothezat and Mr. Ivan Jerome. It was built in July 1921 and made its first flight on December 18, 1922. All of this well before WW-II. It would have been interesting to see WW-II being fought by helicopters vice regular airplanes. Eventually man would have learned the basic concept of flight just through the helicopter. On another note, many other people was working along with the Wright Brothers which I feel would have continue to achieve flight. I don't think they would have let the ideal just die with all the work that was put into it. Man curiosity for flying is way too great to be put to the way side... vor-TEX-62 <-- Yikes!! It's time to Slide....
Sabre Edge Administrator Posts: 155 (9/22/00 2:26:34 am) Reply	Re: Discussion Maybe the atomic device would be hastened, maybe not. In any case there wouldn't be a suitable way to deliver the warhead. A blimp would be burned apart, artillery couldn't fire it far enough, helicopters couldn't fly high enough, and the only rockets at the time were V2 created by the Germany's. The US would have no means to attack Japan with it, aside from planting it on the island by hand (which was next to impossible). Now the Battle of London in helos is a very interesting thought. Helicopter blades use the same aerodynamic designs that planes do (also based on bird's wings), the actual name of the effect escapes me at the moment. The Pacific Theater would be vastly different too. Much more a ship to ship war with amphibious landings, much like the 18th and 19th centuries. Hmmmm, wonder if the Germany's would have had helicopters. Helios make great tank killers.
Missing Slider Ryan Novice Slider Posts: 176 (9/22/00 7:54:35 am) Reply	More thoughts... The possibility that their deaths would lead to the end of experimentation is a good case. Other inventors would take a look at the situation and concur that the risks are unacceptable. If many believe this then many fields would be affected. For example, space exploration would be nonexistent except for the observation by telescopes. Why go developing a method of shooting a man into space when the risks are great and the possibility is death? I don't believe that deaths due to experimental failures would stop the advance of technology. The rewards garnered by such sacifices would be a benefit to mankind. We take the gift of flight with barely a thought. We are too concerned with other things that this is pushed to the back of our minds. We don't realize the goods, services, and travel that we take for granted took the blood, sweat, tears and deaths of many. We reap the rewards while others toiled. MSR "Who wants to live forever?" There can only be one... fifth slider.
BritSlider Beginner Slider Posts: 6 (9/22/00 8:42:41 am) Reply	Even More thoughts... They say that necessary is the mother of invention. Well, mankind has thought it necessary to fly for quite some time, so there is no way that progress would be halted simply by the death of the Wright Brothers. Think of all the other deaths that have been the precursors to great discoveries? The first submarines appeared in the 1800's; and few of those aboard lived to tell the tale; but no-one stopped building them just because of that. Now we have submarines capable of staying at sea for six months or more! And on the subject of many people working on inventions, take the example of the light bulb: Most people think that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, but this is not the case. The first working bulb was actually created by a British chap called Charles Swann. The problem was the Swann is best described as a "Fred in a shed"; the term given to hobby inventors rather than professional ones like Edison. By the time that Swann could get his model up and working, Edison had already filed the patent and begun to manufacture them. With this in mind, I believe that even if the Wright Brothers had died in their attempt, mankind would still have achieved powered flight in less than a year of that happening.
Vortex Master High and Mighty Moderator Posts: 175 (9/22/00 10:14:30 am) Reply	Re: Even More thoughts... Vortex Master walks in to the room. "Sorry I'm late. So what are we supposed to do here?" "Sit down, grab a piece of paper and write your opinion on this." Brit gave VM the note Y left. "Hmm... The Wright Brothers dying, eh?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am sure that the development of aviation would not have been stopped, maybe delayed by a few years, no more. Deaths of inventors never stopped anyone from trying again and again, for the true inventing minds can't be held back by mortality. As for WWI, I don't think planes would have been used there, since they would probably be experimental and wouldn't have been able to be used as war instruments. WWII is a harder question. Surely, planes would be developed to a certain usable level by then. Germany had a lot of use for the planes, both as bombers and as dropping off parachuting troopers(who were a big part of the fighting force, being used for the first time in a war). But if they happen to not be used, I believe there are 2 options: 1. Germany doesn't get very far without air force and gets blocked by the French and British troops. 2. Germany still defeats French and successfully conquers the UK. Germany and Italy rule Europe. Japan rules Asia. Bad guys win. If the US decides to interfere, then maybe they can be defeated. But that's hard to tell. VMaster- The Best Master.
Yeontoo Moderator Posts: 654 (9/29/00 5:12:08 pm) Reply	Continueing "Can Open. Worms everywhere" Brit was muttering about worms as he sat in the far corner, contemplating. Tex exhaled from the center of the shaded area. "The challenge about inventions ...did anyone else notice the vast conflicting dates?" On the other side of area, Brit raised his hand. " This is very nasty, definitely its an opened a can of worms about inventions and the timing thereof. For example, strictly speaking, wireless telegraphy is simply another name for radio; so how could they have different invention dates? Also, the telephone was invented by Alexander Graham Bell between 1875-6, but neither of these dates appear on the list. The closest is 1877, but that date is already taken by Edison's invention of the phonograph! "Motion Pictures is another one to cause confusion. Edison began displaying the first moving pictures in 1891, although the first recognised showing of a motion picture was by Louis Lumiere in 1895. However, that is also the year that Marconi invented radio! You can see where the confusion comes in! One final one is flash photography. Mz Yeontoo should have defined this rather better, because there are many different definitions of what this might mean. It could be the magnesium strips used in the 1860s, the magnesium powder used a few years later, or even the flash bulb which didn't come in until the 20th century. All in all this was VERY confusing to research." "Yeah, I did too." DMD spoke up from his position (fartherest from Brit, but slowly walking towards Tex). "I'm not sure where she got some of her dates. Marconi invented wireless telegraph in 1896. The first radio broadcast was 1904. ARPANET is the predecessor to the Internet and it didn't go online until 1965. None of these dates were available on ther list. (These dates are from Brittanica.com)" Klly exhaled, "Me!" She shifted on her log. "I had trouble with the dates too. I couldn't match everything. Some of these are probably sooooo wrong. I have no match for 3, although what I do have is that the Telephone was invented in 1876 and the Phonograph was invented a year later (1877). (I used the Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia ... so.. don't blame me, blame Microsoft!). MSR nodded. "I had problems too. Who done what exactly when... It kinda looks like its a good thing if everyone agrees it was invented!" Everyone chuckled. "So you guys are saying that the death of an inventor won't stop the invention ...and he's lucky if he's credited with it, and when he invented it. Interesting." Yeontoo spoke into the glen. She began writing her next discussion question as the auditioners spoke amongst themselves.
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