Musings From a Corpse (to Hunter)

Date: 01/17/2001
From: darkslider

I sit here, Hunter, and view this conversation from the virtual grave, a pseudo-corpse. Sci-Fi may have slit my throat, but I am still able to gurgle out ramblings to SpaceTime that it may reach the masses. Your "rant" is as twisted and malformed as its source.

Since I am a reader of your diatribes, I am then at liberty to draw a logical conclusion here.

All people who do not stop harsh treatment of others are to be punished, and that inaction is as horrid as the action itself?

If that is the case, Hunter, step in line right after the Nazis.

I can GUARANTEE that you have been involved in the same situation and were as inactive as the Germans, the inhabitants of Iraq, Iran, and all other nations that commit genocide. As we speak, our "great" nation is selling arms to a militant group in a South East Asian nation that is slaughtering THOUSANDS of innocents, who do not have anything near the same weapons. Is this our problem? According to your theory, we are no better than the Nazis, and should pay, even though this information is not lambasted on the news to the American public, and only known to those who look. We are, like the Germans were, made blind from the truth, thanks to propaganda, censorship, and ignorance. Is this our fault? According to your doctrine, yes!

In fact, according to YOU, ALL OF AMERICA should be hanging from the gallows, yourself included. Tell me, Hunter... how long has your Anglo side been in this country? Unless your parents are immigrants, they took part in either the SLAUGHTER of Native Americans, or stood by idly and reaped the benefits of their deaths. A slaughter that dwarfs the Holocaust twofold, but is rarely spoken of. Maybe your ancestors did not hand out the disease-ridden blankets during this vile time, but they sure as hell did not move to stop the bloodshed when they took land they did not own.

You speak of terrorists, and their idiotic approach to getting what they want. But tell me, O Great One, why did they chose this method? Was it because they want power? Partly, but it is also due to the fact that America is the BIGGEST terrorist nation on the planet, and other nations felt the need to strike back. Why are there so many civil wars in South America? Because AMERICA made it so. America made most of the countries of the world screwed up in some way, thanks to covert terrorism... the other terrorists are merely copying the Master. Your "pure" nation is more evil and wicked than any Nazi wet dream in creation. And every day you breathe, play Nintendo, watch television, wear your sweatshop-produced clothing and eat McDonald's, you are feeding this nation with your ignorance... and helping the cause.

Your American arrogance and blindness is what sickens my being, and why? Because you are NOT the irregularity, you are the mean in the equation. Your ideas are not as mainstream, but just as equally foolish, separated by an imaginary line you drew at some point in time. Two sides, one damn coin. A coin that is rotten and twisted...and the main reason for most of the prejudice you see occurring in this country.

It is not religion that kills people, cripples thought and causes racism to flourish.

It is not money that leads to death of freedom and gives birth to mobs that destroy all things that are beautiful, but misunderstood.

It is the people and their arrogant belief in what is "right" that screws this world. Why? Because everyone believes that they have the answer. The TRUE answer that is the be-all end-all...and refuse to see that their ideas are as fallible as they are.

Wake up, Hunter. You are what you hate. Just another version of it in gothic clothing. You are as "wicked" as the Germans who sat by while Jews, gays, Gypsies and "problem" people were carted off...you are as evil as the citizens of other terrorist nations, yelling at America and burning our flags in anger, and you are equally biased as any other American that walks this planet.

Speaking of unfounded arrogance, there are many here you should fear in a politico tête-à-tête battle. I can name at LEAST five people who could smash your intellectual nuts with a sledgehammer should they be inclined. Why don't they? Because you will not respond to their eloquent statements. Hell, TWO are friends of yours! And even they are "beneath" you...

But, hell, you didn't CHOOSE to do that either, so....

You claim that not all things are chosen. Perhaps...but let me ask...who decides what is chosen and what is not? Science? Another person? God?

A doctor tells a man his spine was severed and he will never walk again. In defiance of the doctor and science, the man works hard, remains positive, and after a few years of intense trying, finally gets up from the chair and slowly begins to walk with therapy. Now, is this a choice? Medical science states that if one crushes/severs the spine, it's done. One cannot recover. But, there is more than one example of this not being fully true...other times, the patient never recovers, as science dictated...So, therefore, who then decided? God? Can God make someone who does not want to walk get up and walk? Not likely. But we can agree, that something, SOMEWHERE decides.

It would be foolish and arrogant to claim to know who (or what) makes the decision or dictates that there even BE one. For we are blind mice in the field of what is and what is not in this world.

Which then leads one to ponder, if decisions CAN be made, and one ignores making a decision, who then decides?

I'll tell you. Someone else outside of the focal point of the situation. Each time you decide NOT to decide, there is ALWAYS someone who is more than willing to take the reigns up for you, and will often use that situation to their own advantage, leaving the initial person even more downtrodden and less aware than before.

Where am I going with this? Any way you choose to take it. You want to give the choice up for being gothic and everything else, and blame it on nature/god/life, then so be it. But do not use the option of choice as a weapon against those who choose to be inactive when in times of evil. You cannot give up your right to choose and feign lack of control and then blame another for giving up the same choice! That's just hypocrisy in its purest form.

I have gone on long enough, but know that this is not an attack on "you" Hunter, per se. I respect the soul you have, and the mind that drives it. But its arrogance in a realm where it is undeserving needs to be shaven down, for it hinders your true insight into life. I would expect the same post/attack from anyone who saw the same flaw emanating from me, and would be insulted otherwise...

Why do I take the time to do this to you? I respond to those I respect, and would hope that you do the same.

Otherwise, you are no better than the idiots you rant about, and not worthy of mine of my time any longer.

Adieu,
darkslider

From Hutner, to Corpse

Date: 01/17/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

Ok, i'm trying to keep this short because its 1:30 am here and someone else want's the computer, I basically skimmed the post and am replying breifly. I promise to read all & reply the first thing when I get online in the daylight hours.

You think I am not aware of Americas brutal history of mistreatment? I'm fully aware of it.
I don't think what the Pilgrims did was one ounce better than what Hitler and his kind did, and had I been around then I likely would have said the same of them I say of Hitler and the Germans.
I don't deny all of Americas history is at most a misrepresentation of history, and at most a flat out lie/fairy tale.
(Escape religous persecution my ass, the Brits celebrate thanksgiving too, it's called F**K OFF PURITAN day.)
--
You mention the numerous groups commiting the same acts Hitler did today, and people not speaking out about them, or not knowing.
First of all there is a differance, you could never convince me that there was a single German who didn't know/suspect exactly what was happening to the Jews.

All this hate being directed at them and suddenly they disappear, taken by the same goverment that formed the Hate against them, for their own 'protection'
if every black, or gay or non-christian was suddenly rounded up, I think I'd notice (and not just due to the fact I belong to atleast 1 of those, and according to some 2 of them)
---
And You make a good case about my gothism, I'll freely admit that.
Ok, my Gothicness, or atleast my Gothic dress is a choice, the books i read and the way I think is a choice.
A lot of things I think where impacted by other choices others made.
methinks I stated them before as not a choice due to the fact that I can't really envision myself any other way, but had circumstances been different I may have been Info, or (dear lord I hope not) Bush.
There are certain aspects of my personality that I'd never give up, a lot of my Gothness is that way (not the dress, the outlook on life & death)
--
Hmm, I'll respond more in-depth tomorrow, but may I ask who the 2 you referance are?

Still waiting...

Date: 01/18/2001
From: SpaceTime

It's been over a day and I'm still looking at 1 reply for this post which leads me to believe a few things:

- blown away by the sheer magnitude, scope and power of Dark's words, your head exploded;
- you realized that you really have nothing left to contribute to this dialogue and gave up;
- the people who support dark's provocative comments are too chicken-shit to say so on the BBoard, and rely on telling him in private, which is meaningless.

Well, I support Darkslider completely, find his writings amazing and chuckle to myself that no one can offer even a word of comment publically. Except me.

Dark, the words you write are powerful and challenge people's views of their safe little society, and I applaud that. I understand the feeling of not being taken seriously because of a history of goofy posts, but when you pull out the guns... wow. Thank you for having the conviction and passion to write what some may have thought but were too cowardly t express and to also touch upon subjects that I didn't know about. It's a foregone conclusion that the U.S. is the world's Boogieman, but as more and more examples are heaped on the pile, it makes you wonder why someone hasn't retaliated against us. The time is coming, I believe.

Anyways, thanks again for your stirring post. I'm sure it riled up a lot of people. Too bad they can't bring themselves to admit it.

- ST

P.S. Hunter, I want to see a post, STAT. 'Cuz your first one didn't cut the mustard...

Ahem, Actually,

Date: 01/18/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

Actually what happened is I have a frigging cold, half the time I feel like I'm about to vomit, and am not operateing of full power.
What little time I'm on the computer mostly I'm working on my X-men moviefics, Avatar, and the other one "The Brotherhood" (title still likely to change)
When I got online I didn't feel like doing a big argument deal and to be honest I don't really feel like doing one now, but never one to disappoint, here we go.
I normally don't curse a lot in my stuff, but I'm going to do some today simply because I'm not in the mood to do creative non-cursewords.
--
My views aren't gonna agree with everybody, they aren't ment too.
i'll admit there are certian things that my views are pretty black & white on. and they aren't right for everyone.

you say, and I quote
"It is the people and their arrogant belief in what is "right" that screws this world. Why? Because everyone believes that they have the answer. The TRUE answer that is the be-all end-all...and refuse to see that their ideas are as fallible as they are. "

you're right, but the differance is I'm not gonna pass a frigging law to say you can't be Christian or read the Bible.
I'm not gonna pass a law saying you can't do anything that doesn't physically hurt another person.
I do still believe that the people in Germany knew what was going on with the Jews, no ammount of Media Supression can hide a large portion of the people disappearing.
When Half the posters on this board disappeard back at the 'Bungee invasion' around the start of Season 5, we sure as hell noticed.
Now imagine this was a neighborhood and suddenly half the people in it weren't there anymore, we didn't see them pack up, we didn't see them leave but they're gone.
THEY KNEW!
if all the Catholics on my block disappeard, I'd notice, If all the blacks on my block disappeared, I'd notice.
They either knew or they where blind, deaf and mute.
--
"In fact, according to YOU, ALL OF AMERICA should be hanging from the gallows, yourself included. Tell me, Hunter... how long has your Anglo side been in this country? Unless your parents are immigrants, they took part in either the SLAUGHTER of Native Americans, or stood by idly and reaped the benefits of their deaths. A slaughter that dwarfs the Holocaust twofold, but is rarely spoken of. Maybe your ancestors did not hand out the disease-ridden blankets during this vile time, but they sure as hell did not move to stop the bloodshed when they took land they did not own. "
--
1-I'm also part native american.
2-Almost every time I mention raceism somewhere I do usually mention the slaghter of Native Americams.
3-i don't keep up with when my Anglo side came here. All I know is what my mom looks up since she's into Geneology.
part white, part black, part native American.
Ando Robert E. Lee (I know, someone like me related to Lee. Ironic Much?)
Frankly I don't give a shit about any of my'Ancestors' farther back than my grandparents.
"i'm Fat, I'm Bitter, I don't care."
--
"Your "pure" nation is more evil and wicked than any Nazi wet dream in creation. And every day you breathe, play Nintendo, watch television, wear your sweatshop-produced clothing and eat McDonald's, you are feeding this nation with your ignorance... and helping the cause."

At what point did I say America was better than any other country?
At what point did I praise America.
FUCK America, I don't give a shit.
All things considered I wouldn't really give a shit if America blew up tomorrow, If i had picked a place to be born odds are it would've been Japan.
--
For the reason of reply I'm gonna gues s that the 2 people you refer to who i don't/ havent responded too and i should fear in a fight are TF and Brand_S
(Frankly I'm guessing them because there aren't a whole lot of people I've called friends who still post here)
I don't doubt they could 'smash my intellectual nuts'
thing is the reason I don't debate with them is, they don't debate with me.
When one of them replies I'll be happy to reply back to them.
Also you appearntly missed part of my reply with info.
I don't fear a discussion with anyone, I fear a FLAME war with ST and EPT because they are good FLAMERS.
I don't think fo Debate & Flame as anything more than barely related.
The purpose of a flame is to ridicule and insult, the purpose of a debate is to, well, debate.
--
I adressed your point of Choice in my last reply but I guess I'll try and restate it here, you make a good point.
My opinion on your story, the man chose to walk again, the human will, whatever the heck you wanna call it.
Not the doctors, not God, but the man.
--
your points on choice did hit me pretty hard, That was your best point in the whole thing and I'll receede there because, as ST so eloquently put it my 'head blew up' and I'm still kind of thinking about that.
my POV on that is still being reformed with some new information.
new POV so far, Everything is a choice.
you can choose to make a choice or you can choose to sit there and take what others dish out.
You're right, I chose being Gothic.
I chose haveing my point of view on life, I chose nto fearing Death but seeing it as another step in some cosmic plan (or joke, as the case may be)
I chose to read works like Watchmen and Poe, like Sandman and Dracula, like The Authority and Byron.
---
---
My rants have never been about , atleast never to me,makeing everyone see things like I do.
I'm not saying I'm 'Right' and they're 'wrong'
hell, I'm don't even believe there is an Absolute Right or Wrong, and Absolute Good or Evil.
And I know that my view isn't the 'correct view' just as much as I know Infos isn't.
My rants are ment too pop open any mind that thinks it's 'right' and give it the idea that maybe they're wrong.
be that mind of Christian or Satanist, of Republican or Democrat.
I've never said I'm "Right" that I am the be all and end all of opinions.
I never said I'm the most worthy/holy/just person in the world.
In my posts on religion I mentioned how unjust I think the whole 'Salvation' thing is, how it should be judged like the Egyptians and Greeks had it, you weight the heart and if they did more good than evil they went to heaven, more evil than good, they went to hell.
I also say, by that standard I may very well be sent to hell.
--
I'm Tony "D", and I'm just as fallible as everyone I've ever ranted against.
That's the ultimate irony, that I realize that.
--

"Man goes to doctor, says he is depressed, life seems harsh & cruel.
Says he feels alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain.
The doctor says 'Treatment is simple, great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight. Go and see him, that should pick you up.'
The man bursts into tears and says, "but doctor, I am Pagliacci"
Alan Moores Watchmen.

"Such is the human race, sometimes it seems such a pity Noah didn't miss the boat."
(mark Twain, as remembered by HunterD)

Hey, SpaceTime...

Date: 01/18/2001
From: capaqu

It's me, the shunned one.

I rarely read anything on this bboard anymore. However, I did read this one from darkslider.

YES, it is stunning. I was enormously impressed! He never ceases to amaze me.

I did not reply for two reasons:

1) I had decided to no longer post on this bboard (I changed my mind this one time).

2) The post was not addressed to me, nor did it ask for critical commentary from the viewing (reading) audience.

Sorry to disappoint you yet again. I was not aware that replies were mandatory on this post as well.

cappy

Ahem

Date: 01/18/2001
From: Tigs

Hunter,

1. Where do you get the idea that Christians have this huge amount of power? When have Christians tried to pass laws saying that you have to be a Christian to do this or that? I'd really like to know, because I've been discriminated against for being a Christian by so called "open minded" people (and I somehow know I'm not the only one). So, where's all this earthly, political power I can tap into? I may be wrong, but this is the third post of yours I've read where it sounds like you are saying Christians rule the country when in truth we have amoral politicians who often go to church only for show, because it's still supposed to mean something.

2. How many people do you know that really live in stark reality? People see what they want to. The information that comes into each and every one of us passes through a series of filters. In essence what we understand the information to be isn't always what the information is. (Sorry if that sounded totally convoluted.) My point is that many Germans didn't want to see anything wrong with a government that was finally giving them pride and economic security. Therefore, there was nothing wrong for them to see.

3. You state, "there are certain things that my views are pretty black & white on" near the beginning of your post. Then near the end you say, "I'm don't even believe there is an Absolute Right or Wrong, and Absolute Good or Evil." Would you please explain this schism to me? I think I've missed something important along the way.

Don't worry about not responding to this reply either. I know I'm not an intellectual giant you need fear. In fact, judging from my rare past toe-dips into debates, people don't really feel the need to understand what I write anyway. It seems to be far more fun to pick one small thing to freak out about (I compared a homosexual gene to diseases--missing the idea that in my humble opinion it is both a predisposition and a choice) or they read into it far more than is or was meant to be there.

Tigs

ps. Dark, I still like the post.

Re: tigs. All can read, please do.

Date: 01/18/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

"every time I try to get out they just keep pulling me back in" ;)
--
OK, point by point.

1-We live in a country where silly little things that don't really harm anyone are illegal due to Christian beluief systems.
My major point on this would be Gay Marriage, it harms NO ONE, but is illegal because Judeo-Christian thinking doesn't like gays.
I still have yet to hear one logical reason why Gays shouldn't be allowed to have atleast a Civil Ceremony.
We still have people butchering Free Speech and trying to outlaw music or movies because they aren't "moral"
We have politicians trying to enforce 'kill limits' on Movies and such.
I'm not saying it's just Christians, Joseph Liebarman is really bad with this too.
We still have laws on what 2 CONSENTING ADULTS can do in their own bedroom(Sodomy laws, not just against gays)
So yes, Judeo-Christian thinking still holds a lot of power.
It annoys the hell out of me that people still use Christian ideaology ion law which ban 2 concenting adults (Sodomy laws) and go against Christianity legalizeing what I consider murder (abortion)

Also, I don't like people who automatically dislike Christians either.
I don't dislike anyone just because their Christian, i may dislike a few of the views they have (views that other Christians may disagree with) but I don't hate the person for it.
"I hate the organized Religion, but not he individual in the Religion"
--
2-You make a decent poiny
but to me it's hard to think people could miss hundreds/ thousands/ millions of people disappearing.
I don't care if they're feeding me frigging morphine, i'd notice that.
--
3-
Hmm, how shall I explain this.
I'll start with the most pardoxical statment.
My beliefs are black & white due to my not believeing in Absolute right or wrong.
Let me put it this way, I believe there are reasons that an Abortion could be justified, but i'm still against abortion as a general rule.
Though I believe abortion is wrong, I wouldn't vote to ban it.
because then what happens when some girl who was raped kills herself because she couldn't get an abortion.
What about the girls who thought they had a loveing husband (or significant other) who then doesn't want a kid and runs out?
What a 13 or so year old who is raped by her father?
I may be personally opposed to it, and think it is wrong, but it isn't ABSOLUTELY wrong, therefore I would not outlaw it.
There is NO absolute good, or absolute evil. No good without a speck of Evil, no Evil without a germ of good.
--

The reason I am against the people who didn't speak out, or help the Jews during WW2 is that it resulted directly in peoples death.
had more people spoken out, less people would have died.
I can very easily picture myself, and those I care about being the persecuted party.
--
There's this old moral quandry, would you kill Hitler as a child if you could.
I used to say I would now I say I wouldn't because I realized that it wasn't Hitler alone who did it.
it was the people who said nothing and allowed it to happen.
If it hadn't had been Hitler, it would have been someone else.

The reason I say I hold those who didn't speak responsible is because it's happened TOO many times in history.
Hitler wasn't the first person to kill people for religion or ethnicity.
He was just more recent.
The Religious Leaders did it in the Witch Trials, burning lots of women at the stake.
Other religous leaders did it with the crusades.
Genocide isn't a new thing, Genocide is as old as the first time a Human noticed there was something different about another Human.

I don't want something like that to happen again, but that's futile because it WILL, hell it IS happening.
--
People don't change, only the groups they hate.
People don't change, only the weapons they kill with.
--
Thing is Hitlers are alive and are growing up now,
I don't fear the Hitlers of the world, they can do nothing on their own.
it's the people who follow their orders I fear.
it's the people who don't speak up against what they have to be seeing.
---

there is this old case, New york if memory seves.
Kitty Genovese, she was murdered outside of her apartment building.
About 40 people heard her screams.
NOT ONE called the cops.
some of them said they watched.
1 man killed her, 40 people watched it.
40 people didn't do anything about it.
(for more about this story check out
http://www.lihistory.com/8/hs818a.htm )
--
Thats one of the weirdest things about my own personal outlook on life.
I don't mind the idea of dieing much,I mean what's the big point of fearing it?
You can't cheat death, we all die,
as mark Twain said Death is "the one immortal who treats us all the same."
Death doesn't bother me.
but the idea people would basically watch me die, or know I was dieing, and do nothing.
I can't forgive that, I can't rationalize that.
People may say my gripeing about this stuff is pointless, but I'm trying to atleast make a drop in the bucket.

I'm not famous or rich or powerful.
Hell most people look at me and think of me of a just a punk kid. Many people over about 40 seem to think if you're under 30 you don't know enough to have an opinion on anything.
So the only way I can do anything is speaking my mind, the only thing I really have the power to do at this point in my life is to say it.
I know I can't stop it, but I want to make others want to stop it.
to see that the same things been happening since Recorded History and still goes on today.
and if I make one person think they should speak up when they see the next Auschwitz being built.
if I make one person call the cops next time they see a Kitty Genovese, then I've done it, then I've made a differance. then I fulfilled what I think the meaning of life is.
to leave the world in a better place than you found it.

Why do I keep ranting on & on?
It's the way I try to make a difference.
and you may maybe it doesn't do a damn thing.
Maybe it's just me talking to hear my own voice (or keystrokes)
but dammit it's what I do.
So if you don't like it, don't read it.
--
D

D

Date: 01/19/2001
From: Tigs

Hunter,

"So if you don't like it, don't read it. "

Just to clarify. I'm not psychic, so I actually have to read or hear something to know if I like it. Just because I question you or
don't agree doesn't mean I don't "like" the fact that you post your thoughts. Isn't your difference making sharing ideas? Doesn't
that work two ways? Or is it only your friends who have ideas you'll think on?

I'm sorry, but your sign off struck the wrong chord. So I apologize if I took it the wrong way.

Tigs

Tigs

Date: 01/19/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

explaining
1-I should have said "if you don't like it you don't have to read it", and thought of that after i posted it but sadly this forum doesn't have a edit button.
(SFC gives us a horrible WHITE backround, but no edit features!)
--
2-The post was less and less about your specific reply and more & more about a lot of stuff over the past week or so as it went on.
--
3-Most people here have a generally good idea about my rants and all ,i've been doing them since around the start of season 5.
--
4-The more I posted the more I realized why I disliked the Germans who didn't speak up.
and the more Darks comparison of me to them pissed me off.
(though I understand and do agree with a good bit of the other stuff Dark said, which I have been contemplateing)
--
The thing is, although my Rants may not make one ounce of difference, atleast I'm trying.
I may not be running out in the jungles of Asia jumping infront of the bullets, but I'm trying to make other people see stuff like that still happens.
and if they don't do anything.
Whether it's big like pushing a law that would outlaw ALL selling of arms, or small like giving the beggar a nickle next time he asks.
Atleast I'm trying to make some differance, no matter how miniscule it may be.
and THAT is what seperates me from the Germans who didn't say anything, and from the Pope who 'silently condoned' Hitler.
I atleast try.
--
I may not make any more differance than they did, but the differance is I try.
--
D

Quick point, Hunter

Date: 01/19/2001
From: SpaceTime

If you look back in history, there is dogma in the Catholic church dating back a millenia that discussed the sanctity of gay marriages. They used to be practiced, they just aren't any more.

People dictate how things progress. Religion and politics. Not the other way around.

- ST

Sigh

Date: 01/19/2001
From: Tigs

Hunter,

Like I said, I apologize if I took the sign off the wrong way. The reason my response was basically only about the sign off was because I fully realized the majority of your reply was not strictly to me.

Again, isn't the point of you trying to make a difference exchanging information, ideas, and philosophies? Am I not doing that? Are you not doing that? Did I miss something? I wasn't slamming your rants. In fact, I think I even said I like the fact that you share your thoughts. So, where's all the jungles of Asia crap coming from?

Confused Tigs

Thanks ST.

Date: 01/19/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

I'll have to study up on that.
I know early Christianity differed a lot from the modern versions. but I had never heard that Gay marriage was ever sanctified by the Chruch.
--
I think Religion/Politics and People do kind of form a loop.
--
In other words a Religion is formed by the people who are in it, i mean heck in a few thousand years there may bloody well be a religion based on us BBoard posters (there's a scary thought.
Exec as God)
*Sudders8
Anyway, Religion is formed by the people in it, but then the religion also forms newer people.
In other words if Religion didn't teach that being gay was 'sinful' maybe people would be more accepting of it.
Then again maybe the religion is just what they use to justify what they'd think otherwise, with or without any particular reason.
--
Either way I'll have to look up on the fact you mentioned.
--
Thanks
-
D

Sorry tigs

Date: 01/19/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

i have a bad habit of replying to 100 things in one post.
A very bad habit, but much like popping my knuckles it's hard to stop.
--
So I'm trying to keep this very short 7 to the point to keep myself from doing that again.
--
yes the point of my rants is about trying to give other people an idea of another opinion, and yes I do enjoy it when people do the same to me.
After all, although I may sometimes come across as a guy who'd like the whole world to think like I do, I'd hate that as much as a world where everyone thought like anyone else.
(If I was always right it'd get so fricking boreing after a while.
ST knows that, he's a God, not THE God, but A God.)
[I hope ST laughs at that if he reads this]

Anyway I do enjoy the exchange of ideas, even when I get pissed off at someone, or someone get's pissed at me.
it is all kind of fun.
--
And I think I'm digressing again so I'll stop before I go off about the Jungles of Asia or the Destruction of Tribal society in Africa.
--
D

Thanks Hunter.

Date: 01/19/2001
From: Tigs

Hunter,

I appreciate you clearing things up for me and answering my questions.

I hope I'm welcome in your future debates. <wink>

Tigs

On Germany

Date: 01/19/2001
From: SpaceTime

Hunter, I am tired of your constant overuse of Germany as an example of the moral inadequacies of a people.

Understand this: desperate men do desperate deeds. I have studied the Holocaust under the guise of Professor Ellenson of the History Department of USC. I have also written on the practices of Germany during World War II and have studied EXTENSIVELY the ramifications of the war, the eugenics programs the prompted German nationalism (and government sponsored sterilization of retarded people and blacks in the United States), and other societal causes that led to the Jewish genocide. I can speak with authority that you are talking directly out of your ass when you talk about pre-World War II Germany.

To fully comprehend the situation, think back to the end of World War II, and the Treaty of Versailles. The French, in all their global impotence, forced greater Germany to pay reparations for the whole of the war to their country. Sounds trifling now, yes, but think about this. Germany was NOT the instigator of World War I, Bosnia was. Also, think about how much it would cost to pay another country for its losses in a war. It's a staggering amount, and Germany, in its efforts to repay the "debt," printed millions upon millions of Deutchmarks which did nothing but devalue its currency to the point where 2 million marks couldn't buy a load of bread, and 5 million marks were more useless than a log for the fireplace. Rampant inflation devastated an economy already beset my forced doctrinal from the League of Nations. Germany went from a basic monarchical society (the Hapsburg Dynasty, Austro-Hungarian Empire) to a nation split in half (Austria spun from its native homeland) and forced to change to a democracy. The Chancellor was little prepared to lead a nation whose main focus was eating.

Fast forward a few years. Starvation, poverty, misery, degradation of a society, a collapsed economy. This is the Germany that began to attach itself to the philosophy of Adolph Hitler. A man staunchly advocating German self-reliance and pride. I don't fully agree with Hitler's agenda, but I understand his need to pull his country's ego out of the gutter and dust it off. Think about this: after more than a decade of the worst depression a country has ever faced, suddenly, there is prosperity. A Hitler-organized army inspired pride despite the fact that no army is to be allowed in Germany as per the LoN. People begin to see hope again. And they are too happy with being able to survive that they don't see that there is still negativity around them.

If you were robbed of your dignity, sat on, had your money taken from you and were reminded daily of how you were inferior, wouldn't you embrace any ideology that made your country thrive again? I think you would.

Amazingly, the notion of Jewish persecution isn't limited to Germany. In Russia there are the "pogroms," which are tolerated by the people as a night of destruction of Jewish property. It was practiced and expected for centuries there, yet you omit them from your same callously unresearched assertions.

The fact remains that the Germans were too busy thinking about how good they had it until it was too late. And I don't think that the Holocaust was a good thing, I just think that you are foolish and surprisingly ignorant to boldly state that under the exact same conditions, you would immediately reverse your thinking and fight your countrymen. Because even then, at some point, you accepted the same doctrine that you now despise because it doesn't sit pretty with you at the moment.

For you to make a blanket generalization shows not only that you aren't thinking about the topic at hand, but that you have never thought about it and are relying solely on the Hollywood interpretation of events that were altogether more powerful and more personal than you can ever imagine.

I invite you to visit the Simon Weisenthal Center in Los Angeles should you ever decided to become more enlightened on the subject. You have a lot to learn about the Holocaust. Especially if you think that the easy answer in retrospect was all so easy in that time. I assure you, it wasn't.

- ST

One point that needs clearing up.

Date: 01/19/2001
From: Sabre_Edge

I've heard it over and over again how you think EVERY German knew about the Holocaust. This is so so wrong.

The German government was able to hide what they doing from the majority of the public. In the mid 40's there was no internet, no TV, no live on the scene reports. What they did have was radio, news reels, and newspapers. All of those media outlets were controlled by a facist, totaltarian government: that means no freedom of the press. They were able to censor and repress any "damaging" information. The concentration camps were not set up in the middle of cities. They were placed in quiet secluded areas, away from the public eye. Many Jews were living together in groups in Ghettos, away from Mid-class Germans' eyes as well. Unless they traveled to these inner cities areas, the "average" German didn't know the Jews were actually taken away. They did not live in every neighborhood as you alluded to.

The US used Japanese Relocation Centers during the same time period. A good majority of the US citizens were not aware this was going on and we had freedom of the press! Farmer Brown in Iowa chucking hay wasn't aware that the Japanese (who lived mainly in the west) were being "relocated". Iron workers in Pittsburgh slaving away to make tanks didn't notice Japanese were being forced from their homes. Both the Axis and the Allies used very large amounts of propaganda to make their citizens feel good and that their side was right. Germany (as Tigs said) was feeling very patriotic and believed they were claiming what was rightfully their's by taking the Alsainc-Lorraine (sp) and the Rhineland.

If by chance or by keen observation some German citizens did notice that Jews were coming up missing, they were told by officials that the Jews were being relocated or deported. Imagine the shock of that country's populace when it was discovered by Allied forces the full extent of the Holocausts horrors.

You can't hold the majority of the Germans responsible for not standing up to the Holocaust because many of them didn't even know.

SE

An addendum

Date: 01/19/2001
From: SpaceTime

Hunter,

Don't fear a flame war with me. Fear my intellect. Any man can talk about jubblies. Any man can make broad, uninformed decisions. You have. I am here to debate you into the ground, because you need to be.

There's nothing worse than a man who thinks he knows everything. Especially when he's wrong, and someone with more eloquence can call him on it.

Frankly, I'm a little insulted that you fear my flame, because those are nothing. My power lies in my ability to open your eyes to your ignorance.

- ST

Simon Weisenthal Center

Date: 01/19/2001
From: Sabre_Edge

ST, is another name for the Simon Weisenthal Center in Los Angeles the "Museum of Tolerance"? If so, I have been there and it is a very powerful place. It really does cause you to take a step back, especially in the rooms built to look like the concentration camp gas chambers and the B & W movie reels.

SE

Yes, it's the Museum of Tolerance

Date: 01/19/2001
From: SpaceTime

I've been there three times. Personally, the most moving part for me is receiving the small card with the child's face on it. For those of you who have never been there, each person can take a tour that leads through representations of a German street, a cafe, propoganda rooms, and finally admittance into a concentration camp. After all this (and the disturbing videos SE talks about), you put the card into a machine and it tells you the real-life story of the person on the card, including whether or not they survived the Holocaust. 80% of the cards are deaths. There's a lot of stuff there that really raises your awareness.

Also, SE, the majority of concentration camps weren't even in Germany, they were in the Eastern European territories that Germany conquered.

- ST

Necromancy

Date: 01/19/2001
From: darkslider

...sadly, you have chosen to slap me instead of speaking...

I awaited your larger post, like a gentleman. I awaited your words, not to attack them like a dog, but to listen. I honestly wanted to see what you had to say...and you chose to use the tattered front I tried to cut in order to greet me. Such rudeness should be enraging, and normally would have been met with a flame you have never been subjected to in your long sheltered life here. However, to me, it is merely disappointing. I was not angry with what you said, merely saddened that you had taken the time from a "busy" schedule to post... whatever the hell you wish to call your statements above.

This leads me to conclude that your Ego is still in control here, and has a severe distaste for my statements. It would seek more of my intellectual attacks before you will honestly listen to me. If this is the case, then so be it, if this is what it takes to humble your Ego, then let us begin....

Of course one would notice the Jews being carted off now, we all now are fully aware of what was going on. Hell, I could invent the damn airplane first if I were to go back in time and use the information of the future I have in my head. Truth is, we "know" what we would do in Germany because we are fully aware of the situation. A situation that has been talked into the ground and distorted in so many ways that the truth is impossible to decipher.

Hindsight bias is always 20/20, Hunter, and you demonstrate this fallacy so well that TEXTBOOKS should copy your statements here as an example of how hindsight bias and cognitive dissonance work hand in hand.

The Nazis took people off slowly and quietly, as they gained power, from different regions and over the span of 12 YEARS. The people were pre-occupied with recovering from W.W.I. As Space so eloquently described, the people's "backbone" had been broken by the wretched French-influenced Treaty of Versailles, leaving the nation broken and bewildered. A perfect combination for keeping people dumb while other things go on.

In order to truly grasp this, I recommend that you become a man first. Now, while this is not meant as an insult, and should give raise to a whole other dissertation, I will be brief to continue on to the point I am digressing from. You and I are boys. Our chronological ages may say otherwise, and the government may say otherwise, but we are boys. Why? Because manhood/womanhood is not about aging, something most people confuse. And the truth is that everyone here who has not had to care for a family and sacrifice for them is not a man or woman.

That being said, we have now set the stage for the macabre situation that occurred in 1930's Germany, and I will attempt to show that life is not as easy when we VIEW IT IN A TEXTBOOK.

I am a man who has three kids and a wife in Germany during the 1930's. All of us are now poor and starving thanks to the ToV, and my children will soon die if I don't get food for them. The woman I love is severely underweight, and cries at night when she thinks I am asleep. The first thing on my mind is that I need to feed them, even though the world robbed me of everything I had and told me I was worthless because of it. I begin to lose faith in life. All around me, I see death and poverty, and no hope. After a time of this, someone comes along and offers me a chance to get back what's mine, as long as I believe in myself and work my ass off to support the cause that will get it. I need to feed my family, so I agree. I work long, hard days, and begin making enough to just support my family. Things start to look up. Even though I come home exhausted from helping "the cause" that is saving me I enjoy the work, and have little time to pay attention to things around my neighborhood. I do not keep track of Joe Lebowitz let alone Hans Strufhouzen, whom I barely spoke to a few blocks over, nor do I care to. I barely speak to my family as I work so much that all I do is that and sleep. Suddenly, Joe Lebowitz disappears. So what?! My kids need clothes and my wife needs medicine for her coughing fits. I continue on trying to survive, NOT KEEP MY EYE OUT FOR SOCIAL INJUSTICES. Why? Because when all is said and done those guys could not help me survive. Social justice doesn't put food on the table or keep my wife from death, my children safe, or me from putting a bullet through my head after seeing my family die.

Your statements sicken me. YOU have never been in such a situation and neither have I, but I'll tell you this, Hunter. If I were in that man's place, and you were taken, I would not even blink an eye. Is this selfish? Most certainly. But in all honesty, between you - someone I barely know - and the family I love, you get the axe every single time. And you would be the biggest LIAR in the WORLD if you did not feel the same way.

Such is the Past though. Right? I mean, such things like the Japanese Internment Camps and Native American slaughter are remnants of a past drowned in ignorance, yes? Certainly those things do not happen today! Not here on our shores! Such naïveté is only reserved for children.

Such things would never happen again here again, without your keen observations catching it? Tell me then, Eagle Eye, have you noticed that the ratio of African Americans to any other race being carted off to neo-concentration camps (America calls them Penitentiaries) is nearly 4:1?! Or that many "accidental" shootings by police officers are against young, black males?! Oh, but wait, they are not being taken to be EXECUTED, now are they... wait, they are! The ratio of African Americans on DEATH ROW (the neo-Final Solution) is even higher than the rate of those imprisoned!

But, HEY, you would notice this if it were REALLY occurring, or if you CARED about America. A land you'd gladly trade for a nation in the Pacific that is even more twisted and has a bloodier past than our own! A nation where blacks are discriminated moreso than here! A land where the Uni die away on reservations just as the Native Americans do here! A land full of areas where young girls are groped on subways daily, or where girls younger than 13 are discreetly sold to lecherous men as whores and slaves. A country that has executed its own honorable military.But, perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps I should wait for YOU, who is still unable to see past his own subtle sexism and blind arrogance that he secretly can spot all injustices, to tell me when to come to action.

Hilarious, considering that you are blissfully unaware of your sexism, like your own intellectual elitism on this Bulletin Board. I mentioned two people. One was a woman who has crushed you publicly...your friend and mine, Stoker_Chick. Her brilliance in debate as well as flame is uncanny, and shames ANYTHING you have ever uttered here. And what of TemptressInfinity? A woman who has silenced many a person here more times than I can count! Or Tigs, who knocked you down repeatedly in this string, even though SHE WAS NOT EVEN GOING TO POST SOMETHING HERE.

The truth is that you picked men. Men who, while very intelligent, were not whom I was speaking... well, ONE was, but it is not my place to speak for him. You wish to know who he is... ask him. Or is that too much effort, considering there's fanfic to be written? Idle trifles to sustain your blissful ignorance and keep you from speaking with us on things that really matter with people on and above your level of understanding and intelligence.

Finally, it amazes me that as your debate circle grows, your statements become less intelligent and thoughtful, and more LOUD AND BRASH. Actions of a man who clings to beliefs that are not his own, but the only he can feel comfortable with.

Do not waste my time again with another of those used toilet paper equivalents above. If you are going to respond to me, then talk with me. Next time, I will not be as calm.

You do not want to battle? Then listen and grow. It's just a shame that the great "ranter" cannot even handle a conversation with a corpse.

-darkslider

Damn, you're good darkslider...

Date: 01/19/2001
From: capaqu

Amazing, as always! How is it that someone young in years can be so wise?

I'm in awe. I'm speechless.

I miss you.
cappy

Responding without ranting

Date: 01/19/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

Here I go.
You've all made good points. VERY good points, and points I will probably be thinking about for a long time.
--
You're right, a lot of people probably didn't notice what was going on with the Jews, either because they where too busy with their own survival or just plain didn't care.
--
hereby promise to stop bitching about Germany atleast until I get a chance to visit the museum...which'll probably be a while since I don't have a car, or the cash to pay for the gas to go there if I did have one.
(and No I don't fly or take trains)
--
I didn't purposely omit women in my little rant. Hell to be honest I didn't even know Tigs WAS a woman!
--
Like I said before, and before I was 'ranted' on and debated into my own coffin by a living corpse, I was cutting back on Ranting anyway.
--
*sigh* Didn't I say a few days ago I was gonna stop ranting until I had something NEW, other than Raceism or Censorship to rant on?
--
You all did make some great points, and like I said I'll be thinking about them for a long time to come.
So instead of me ranting off, I'm gonna do what Mark Twain said to do when you find yourself on the side of the majority, because I just realized I was on the side of the majority, Pause & Reflect.
--
D

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Nominated by Blinker