Date: 04/27/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

Hmm, a multi-themed post

first off, can you help me find the complete transcript of a Buffy quote.
I am looking for the quote from Earshot when Buffy is talking the one that ends in "you think it's quiet down there? it's not it's deafening"

I'm trying to write a little story and that quote relates well, but I can't remember it.
---
oh and since the Buffy topic may be offboard soon I figure I'll 'waste valuable BBoard space' and post something here.

I own Leather boots and LOVE my leather jacket.
I'm not saying I'm a Peta person (infact I find Peta people as annoying as those people who hunt for trophies)
I don't own a leather couch, i think that's a tad excessive.

I justify it as animals kill one another to build up fat to survive the winter. We kill cows to take their skin to survive the winter, same goal, different way.

--
As for the "Alive" thing, well.
You're main reason for not doing it is, from my understanding, you don't want to piss off God.

my take, which is God cares more about who you really where, than who you pretended to be.
In other words, it doesn't matter who or what you worshipped.
In which case he would understand my position.
He (or She, or It) may not agree with what I did, but would love me enough to forgive me (asked for or not)

and given the fact I've defended the Devil himself, and my stance on the Judeo-Christian/ Religious Right idea of God...if that's what he's like, pissing him off doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Life is ment to be lived to the fullest.

I'd rather have it on my tombstone
"for 20 years he was truly lived"
than "for 100 years he was alive"
--
D

"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
-Johann von Goethe

"We must respect the other fellow's religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-H. L. Mencken

(and actually on my tombstone it'll say
"Geez, it sure is hot in here")
:)
--
D

Reply...

Date: 04/27/2001
From: Informant

Buffy scene :

************************************************************

INT. TOWER - DAY

...CRASHING through into the tower. Buffy LANDS, ROLLS right into the line of fire of the rifle.

JONATHAN
Get away from me!

She comes up slow, eyes on him.

BUFFY
Okay, Jonathan, you wanna point that somewhere else?

JONATHAN
You better not try and stop me.

BUFFY
No. No stopping. I'm just here for
the view. Hey look, city hall.

JONATHAN
Go away.

BUFFY
Never gonna happen.

JONATHAN
You think I won't use this?

BUFFY
I don't know, Jonathan, I'm just --

JONATHAN
Stop doing that!

BUFFY
Doing what?

JONATHAN
Stop saying my name like we're friends.
We're not friends. You all think I'm an idiot. A short idiot.

BUFFY
I don't.

His hands tighten on the gun. He's getting angry.

BUFFY
I don't think about you much at all.
Most people here don't. Bugs you,
doesn't it? You've got all this pain,
all these feelings and nobody's paying attention.

JONATHAN
You think I just want attention?

BUFFY
No, I think you're in the bell tower
with a high powered rifle because you
want to blend in. Believe it or not,
Jonathan, I understand. About the pain.

JONATHAN
Oh, right. 'Cause the burden of being
beautiful and athletic, that's a crippler.

BUFFY
I'm sorry, I was wrong. You are an idiot.

This stops him.

BUFFY
My life happens very occasionally to
suck beyond the telling of it. More than
I can stand sometimes. And not just me.
Every single person down there is ignoring
your pain because they're way too busy with
their own. The beautiful ones, the popular ones,
the guys that pick on you... everyone.

She comes around to look down at the courtyard. He looks as well, his grip on the gun loosening.

BUFFY
If you could hear what they're feeling --
the confusion, the loneliness... It looks
quiet down there. It's not. It's deafening.

They stand side by side for a moment, looking down.

BUFFY
You know I could have taken the gun by now.

JONATHAN
I know.

BUFFY
(holds out her hand)
Rather do it this way.

Slowly, he hands her the gun. Her hand is shaking a little as she takes it and unloads it.

JONATHAN
I just wanted it to stop.

BUFFY
Well, mass murder is not actually doctor
recommended for this kind of pain. And
by the way, prison? A lot like high school,
only instead of noogies --

JONATHAN
What are you talking about?

BUFFY
Actions having consequences, stuff like that --

JONATHAN
I wouldn't ever hurt anybody.
I came up here to kill myself.

 

***********************************************************

As for the other issues...

I like my leather couch. It's comfortable, and looks good and smells good. It's not like other couches. There's a different feel to it that I like. It's not just for looks.

I think that it's more than pissing off God. I just don't think that I would do it anyway. But the God thing is a good reason.

I think that I want to be able to live my life until the end, having to be ashamed of as little as possible. And if I were to eat a human, I would feel shame, and disgust with myself. Some things aren't worth doing to survive. Life isn't important enough to not only go against my beliefs, but to go against who I am. I don't want to be the guy that will hack apart bodies in order to spare himself. That's not even part of my nature. It goes against the very core of my personality.

If I did that, I would never be able to live with myself anyway. I'd be the guy in the movie that is willing to sacrifice everyone else in order for me to live. At least, that's how I'd see myself.

I'd rather die with some level of respect for myself than live without respecting myself. I don't see myself as an animal. I am a human. I am above animal instinct. I have a soul that differs from animal souls. I have a mind that differs form their minds.

I think I'm just on a different level of thinking than those, like you, who would do that. I can't even fathom that becoming an option. It wouldn't even occur to me.

Hunter (Re: God)

Date: 04/27/2001
From: QBall79

What I gathered from your comments was this: you're going to live however you want to live, do whatever you want, and do right by your own standards. Then, when you die, this God, if he even exists, is going to look you over, give you a sly wink and let you in because you lived according to your own way.

This God you speak of, which as far as we know only exists in your imagination, operates not by his own set of standards or rules, but by yours. And if he doesn't, then to hell with him, right?

By what you've said in this post and before, YOU are dictating to God, when traditionally it's always been the other way. I don't think that's how it works.

Essentially, you are condemning God for the same thing you yourself are doing -- by the Judeo-Christian standard, we are damned if we don't live up to his standard (although Christianity does provide salvation from that damnation) -- you are turning the tables, condemning God himself for not living up to YOUR standards. The difference here can be summed up in one simple question: who are you to say what is right or wrong or fair? Who are you to "show God how it's done"? What you are essentially doing is putting yourself in place of God -- it's called humanism. I guess you could even call it "Hunterism," since you've kind of given it your own brand.

If that's the way you want to live, then that's your choice. Just remember that one day when your body is six feet under, you will have been either right or wrong, and there are consequences for each scenario. If you are right, and this god you've concocted turns out to be real, then you'll get to heaven no matter what you do. If nothing happens after we die and we just cease to exist, then nobody will have lost anything and life will be all over. If the Hindus are right, you'll be reincarnated or become one with the universe. But if Info's God is the true God, you might say "to hell with him" now, but things will change if you are wrong. I don't want that to happen to you, but in the end it's all about our own decisions -- you can't blame God.

In closing, I hope you don't take this as a flame -- it's not intended to be one. I mean no disrespect toward you or anyone who believes differently than I or Info. I'm just commenting on your stated beliefs, as you have done many times on Info's, and sharing a part of how I see things. I wouldn't mind more constructive discussion on this and other topics, as long as we can all get along. I seem to have a knack for pissing people off with my comments, even when I happen to be right -- I hope I haven't done that here.

Q-Ball79
http://www.slidersweb.net/

Well Infy

Date: 04/27/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

First & foremost, thanks for the Buffy Quote.

now "as for the other issues"

"I think that I want to be able to live my life until the end, having to be ashamed of as little as possible. And if I were to eat a human, I would feel shame, and disgust with myself. Some things aren't worth doing to survive. Life isn't important enough to not only go against my beliefs, but to go against who I am. I don't want to be the guy that will hack apart bodies in order to spare himself. That's not even part of my nature. It goes against the very core of my personality. "

I understand that.
I wouldn't be ashamaed of myself if I did it.
I've said before I see very little differance between Humans & Animals.
that works both ways.
I wouldn't ever kill a Dog or Cat unless I had too.
Nor would I kill a human unless I had too.
But I don't have any more moral compunctions over eating a human to survive than I do a cow.

"If I did that, I would never be able to live with myself anyway. I'd be the guy in the movie that is willing to sacrifice everyone else in order for me to live. At least, that's how I'd see myself. "
I don't see it that way, I wouldn't sacrafice everyone for me to live, but if you're already dead, what is the point of keeping the Body around for.
The Body is just a shell. I wouldn't KILL someone (who I didn't think deserved it) to survive.
But then again I'm a guy who would push a button to wipe all human life...myself included, off the planet if I knew it would help the other animals of the planet so.

"I'd rather die with some level of respect for myself than live without respecting myself. I don't see myself as an animal. I am a human. I am above animal instinct. I have a soul that differs from animal souls. I have a mind that differs form their minds. "
I have respect for myself, I understand you're point about wanting to respect yourself.
Thats why I say a lot of what I say.
I wouldn't respect myself if I didn't say the truth about my opinions.
It would probably be a lot easier for me to just lie and say "i could never do that" but it wouldn't be honest and I'd loose respect for myself.
One of my personal beliefs is to try & live my life with a minimum of regrets. To me changeing my opinions to 'fit in' would be a thing I would definatly regret for all eternity.
Pretending to think different than I do just to make others, even God Him(or Her, or It)self, is against the very core of my being.

As for being different than an animal.
I think we are, and that's also why I value Animals equal to or above humans.
I don't think of humans as a drop better than any animal.
From the Wolf to the Vulture. Humans are unworthy of comparison to any species.
Humans are the only species able to lie, able to be cruel, able to kill for reasons other than survival.
If any species should be barred entry from any afterlife. It's humans.
All the positive qualities in humans (love) are appearnt in other animals.
All the evil qualities of man are exclusive to man.

"I think I'm just on a different level of thinking than those, like you, who would do that. I can't even fathom that becoming an option. It wouldn't even occur to me."

Well I'm going to assume that 'different' doesn't mean 'superior' and continue without getting defensive.

I think it's pretty easy for someone who hasn't ever been starved or been freezeing, to say "I'd never do that"
I'm being honest, I think I'd do it.
We're BOTH speaking in purly hypothetical situations here.
We're BOTH speaking on what we THINK we would do.
and, if the Dieties are kind, neither of us will EVER find out.

Maybe I would decide I couldn't do it, I don't know.
It's like when people talk about "if I had been a slave"
(which I usually finish with "youd have been picking cotton)
It's very, very, easy for us, who haven't been in that situation to say what we would do.
Until we are in that situation, neither of us know.
I may very will, in that moment go to pick upp the knife and go "I can't do it' and starve to death rather than eat.
You may very well go into hunger pains you can't fathom and eat up.
Neither of us know, and by the love of every diety ever heard of, I hope neither of us ever has to find out.

What I'm saying isn't as much "I'd Definately do it"
I'm more along the lines of saying "I'm not ruleing out the option until I'm in that situation"
--
The only things I'm certain of is i'm not ready to die for no real point.
and Starvation is one of the slowest & most painful ways to die.

If I where in that situation I may just take my knife & kill myself rather than eat anyone (although at this moment I think of suicide as less diginified than cannibalism)

but I'm not gonna sit here and say "i'd never do it" when I know I don't know whether I would or wouldn't.
I don't see a point in, when I honestly don't know, saying what I wouldn't do.

and as for Gods opinion on what I do if I'm ever in that situation.
Feh, He doesn't care for mine I don't care for his.
--
what I leave you with is a bit more on the Animal issue
--
D
"The only thing I want to be ashamed of when I die, is the fact I was born human"
D-2001

"Man is the only animal that robs his helpless fellow of his country-takes possession of it and drives him out of it or destroys him. Man has done this in all the ages. There is not an acre of ground on the globe that is in possession of its rightful owner, or that has not been taken away from owner after owner, cycle after cycle, by force and bloodshed.

Man is the only Slave. And he is the only animal who enslaves. He has always been a slave in one form or another, and has always held other slaves in bondage under him in one way or another. In our day he is always some man's slave for wages, and does that man's work, and this slave has other slaves under him for minor wages, and they do his work. The higher animals are the only ones who do their own work and provide their own living.

Man is the only Patriot. He sets himself apart in his own country, under his own flag, and sneers at the other nations, and keeps multitudinous uniformed assassins on hand at heavy expense to grab slices of other people's countries, and to keep them from grabbing slices of his. And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man"- with his mouth."
Mark Twain, in his book "The Damned Human Race"

re: QB79

Date: 04/27/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

I have my own ideas on God, that's true.

I was raised to believe basically the same things Info does.
The whole idea that only Straight Christians get into heaven.

and as I got older and I met more & more people, I discovered this left most of the good people in the world out of heaven ,and sent them to hell.

I'd rather be in hell with Ghandi & Hitler, than be in heaven with Pope Innocnet and most of the Christians I have known.

I'm not saying God has to listen to every little criteria I think up.
What I'm saying is whoever, or whatever, God is he gave me a mind, he gave me eyes to see the injustices in the faith i was taught.

I am the one given to option to worship God or not too.
If the Judeo-Christian God is the right one.
The one that would say to Slidemania "You where gay, you go to hell"
or the one that would say to Ghandi 'You got the name wrong, You are going to hell"
the one who would say to a guy like my Uncle "You got the name right, go right on in"
Then I do not want to be associated with him, in the slightest.
he is not worth my worship.

I've met a lot of people in my life.
and I'd rather be in hell with the lots of good NON-Christians I've known...than in Heaven with the lots of bad Christians I've known.

"Heaven for climate, Hell for the company"

As much as I enjoy debateing with Info here on earth, I'd rather talk with Ghandi in the fires of hell, than know that the guys who burnt 'Witches' at the stake are sitting in heaven.
--
My problem is with gods criteria for entrance.

If it is like the Egyptians idea.
God weights your heart.
I may very well fail that test.
I may very well have done more evil in my life I did good.
I may very well have been a horrible person.
but atleast I'll know the good people got in.
In the Judeo-Christian idea...it seems to me like he's putting the victims in jail, while the bad people get in to heaven.
All cause they got the name right.

The idea of "name game Salvation" and the idea of a "loveing God" are so diametrically opposed it isn't even funny.

The Loving God I have no problems with, even if I fail his ideas and go to hell.

The idea of a God who only lets you in if you got the name right...he isn't worth my respect, he isn't even worthy of my scorn.
--
D

Allah Allah Bo-Ballah...

Date: 04/27/2001
From: QBall79

You brought up some interesting points, Hunter, and I'm going to attempt to answer most of them.

Yes, the Bible does condemn homosexuality -- it does say it's wrong. In fact, homosexuals are sinners and deserve to go to Hell for breaking God's law. But news flash: SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." --Romans 3:10. You said before that it looks like most of the good people are going to hell -- but according to God's standards, they aren't even close to being good.

We all do things that go against God's law -- we are all sinners. I don't think a perfect person exists today (and as hard as this may be to except, Hunter, that includes you too ;-). Breaking God's law, also called "sin," is punishable by death. "For the wages of sin is death." -- Romans 6:23. So it's just not gays that are condemned -- ALL mankind is condemned according to the Judeo-Christian law. We are not worthy of Heaven, or even God's love because we strayed from his plan starting with Eden.

But Romans 6:23 doesn't end there, as you may know (or maybe you don't): "...but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord."

"As much as I enjoy debateing with Info here on earth, I'd rather talk with Ghandi in the fires of hell, than know that the guys who burnt 'Witches' at the stake are sitting in heaven."

First of all, how do you know who made it to heaven or who didn't? I think we both know you aren't God, and last I checked, God made those decisions. Second of all, if you did go to hell, that wouldn't change the fact that some people of whom you don't approve made it in, and you would know it either way.

"What I'm saying is whoever, or whatever, God is he gave me a mind, he gave me eyes to see the injustices in the faith i was taught."

This is very true, and I'll be the first to agree with you when you say there have been some ugly things done in the name of God -- the Holocaust, KKK, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials -- the list goes on. But it is unfair to judge a God by the actions of those who claim to be his followers. Too often people use God as an excuse to carry out their own sordid desires, when in fact their actions have no true scriptural basis, and God would never have them do those things. The Bible is the most misquoted book in history.

"The idea of 'name game Salvation' and the idea of a 'loveing God' are so diametrically opposed it isn't even funny."

Salvation has nothing to do with a name game. If that is what you have been taught, then you have been misguided. Nowhere in the Bible does God say, "You can't get to heaven unless you can pronounce my name." That sounds like the beginning of a joke.

The actual story of salvation is found in the Bible, not in the words of some misguided preacher or a racist uncle. It's not about hate, and it's not even about trying to live according to God's law -- that's IMPOSSIBLE. It's realizing that we are wholly inadequate, and accepting God's salvation -- something he gave us because he loves us. "But God commendeth His love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." --Romans 5:8

If the only requirement of salvation was to get God's name right, then it would be easy to get into heaven. But that's not it.

Remember those references you have made to people who are supposedly Christians but do awful things? Those people who you said you would rather burn in Hell than see in Heaven?

Well, Jesus had this to say: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
--Matthew 7:21-23

So don't assume that just because people do something in the name of God that God approves of it. Don't think that just because people utter the name of Jesus that they are assured Heaven. It doesn't work that way -- apparently someone has steered you the wrong way in this department, because there is more to the story than you seem to know.

Hope this helped.

Q-Ball79
http://www.slidersweb.net/

Re:QB :)

Date: 04/27/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

No I'm not God,
I'm A god, not the THE God ;)

Anyway Im more reffering to waht some of the more....extreme, conservative Christians believe.
i know, and I know Slidemania knows.
one guy who is very Religious Right...so much he makes Info look like a liberal.

I am a little more 'guarded' on what i say there.
also a little more open in some areas.
he thinks only people who go to church are Christians.
and when I said I prefer the more 'human' depictions of jesus (the ones where he actually fears death) he said something along the lines of 'what do your preferances have to do with anything"

I've heard what you said before, heck some of it even sounds like what I say to the more "Religous Right' people I talk too.

I know I come off VERY harsh on the Juedeo-Christian diety idea.

I was raised going to church a lot, I know more about the bible than most people who do call themselves Christian.

I have a tendancy of more reffering to 'Dogma' than the Bible itself (and lord knows sometimes the 2 things are diametrically opposed)
---
but I was raised to believe that only people who prayed to Jesus got into heaven.
I also decided, pretty early on, that was a really freaking stupid way to do things.

My idea goes with some verses of the Bible
Includeing one where he talks to a Roman Centurion
(this is as i recall it, I suck at remembering verses, I'll look it up later)
The Centurion says his slave is very sick.
Jesus says that he will come & heal him
The Centurion says that he doesn't need to come, that "I am a man with men above me, and I am a man above men, if I tell them to do something it is done. Merely say it and it will be done"
Jesus is shocked, and he says "never, even in Isreal have I seen such faith, I tell you that many will come from the east & the west, and many sons of the kingdom will be turned away, and there will be great weeping & gnashing of teeth"

I've always beleived if God is even half as loving as he is supposed to be, what one calls God, doesn't matter in the sightest.
it isn't the messenger, it's the message.

and by that criteria a lot of people, regardless of who or what they worshipped stay out, and a few, very few, get in, regardless of who or what they worshipped (or even if they worshipped)

and i think that passage backs up my idea on that

Jesus is saying to a Pagan (centurions where romans, and therefore had to worship Roman Gods) that he has more faith than any in Israel. and that Many will come, but sons of the Kingdom (Christians?) will be turned away.
--

I have a lot of Faith, in many versions of God.
I just have none in the extreme-Right Wings version.
--

and don't misunderstand what I ment about 'enjoying life'
I'm a 19 year old virgin.
Do you honestly think that would happen if I didn't think God wanted me to wait until I was AT-LEAST in a very stable relationship.
It'd be a lot more fun to just sleep around (although it'd be more hazardous too)

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
-Dalai Lama
---
D

Re:Hunter :-)

Date: 04/27/2001
From: QBall79

Who knew how many Groundhog Day fans there were on this board?

I'm aware of some of those extreme, hard-core Conservative Christian types -- the kind who are against things like interracial relationships, women wearing pants, anyone wearing shorts, and any and all dancing (to name a few things). Some of those same people believe that you are on your way to Hell if you dont' believe and practice exactly as they do -- this despite the fact that they have no real scriptural basis to back it up. I have an uncle whom you would put in that crowd (actually I put him in that crowd too) -- I don't think he's so much a racist (though my Grandfather on my father's side is a blatant racist), but my uncle believes women should only wear dresses, and that dancing is wrong, among other ridiculous things. He's nice enough not to get preachy about it around us -- in fact he's really nice -- but still, he has those beliefs, and I think it's ridiculous, not to mention it paints a negative picture to many of what Christianity is all about. I don't claim to be a world-renowned Bible scholar, but one thing I know Christianity ISN'T about is religion.

In fact, the few times Jesus addressed the idea of religion in the Bible, he condemned it.

Christianity is about establishing a relationship with God -- a relationship that is broken by sin. Since God will have nothing to do with sin (it's part of his nature), something has to be done in order to fix that relationship. It's not that God hates us sinners -- it's that he hates our sin. That's the only thing in the way of a relationship between God and man.

Because God loves his creation so much, and wants to re-establish a relationship with mankind, he came up with a plan to take care of that sin problem -- a substitutional sacrifice. So he sent Jesus down to settle the score, and Jesus suffered and died in our place. That's the Gospel -- the theme of Christianity -- love and redemption.

You may feel that is a stupid way to do things, but that is the way God did them, and I personally think it works. In John 14:6, Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father except through me." Jesus was alluding to the fact that he was to be the sacrifice for man's sin, and that only through him could salvation and a relationship with God be acquired. Yes, that pretty much narrows our options, but I don't have a problem with God making one way to get to Him. Hell, we don't even DESERVE to get to him, let alone ONE way, yet he made a way because he loves us THAT MUCH. To me, that's an offer I can't refuse, and I'll take that one way. Anyone who would do that much just to get my attention deserves it.

That is what Christianity is really about -- not Dogma, not a set of strict rules that we must abide by, not excluding people because of their race, color or sexual preference. Jesus died for everyone -- for me, for you, for Info, for Slidemania, etc. Despite what you've been taught, God doesn't play favorites.

Q-Ball79
http://www.slidersweb.net/

I like this...

Date: 04/28/2001
From: Informant

I'm hooked on this debate. Not only is pretty much everything I'm thinking being said (thanks QBall!), but it's all being done in a really good way. I was driven off of board because they wouldn't accept my beliefs, and... well, they were pretty much the biggest assh0!3s in the world. It makes me understand why this board lasts so long even witht he show gone, we can discuss things without being rude or insulting. Good job, both of you.

Plus, mentioning me every other sentence is really good PR. Keep it up!

Re:QB again

Date: 04/28/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

First I wish to make it clear I don't think all Christians are jerks & Assholes, I know a few who arent.

Hmm, lets see, assumeing your Chritian.
You, Info, a girl on another forum dubbed Sox, 2 of my Uncles, 3 of my cousins, my sister, her son (he's 13, the others I think are too young to decide whether they're gonna be A-holes when they grow up)
So that's 10, and if we count someone I haven't talked to but watch & respect, Christine, who is on Politically Incorrect sometimes, it's 11.

The Teachings of Christ aren't about religion, but Christianity has become, and is, a Religion

"One of the worst things men ever did, was take a good idea, and build a belief structure on it"
Rufus in Dogma.

I believe in a relationship with God, but I think that can be done in many, many ways, Christianity being good for the goose, but not for the gander (as i think with all religions)
I myself grew up "in the faith" and never really felt "close to God' but when I got older and studied other religions.
Wicca, Hinduism, and various forms of Mythology (a word i generally only use as with Gods who are no longer worshipped)
i felt a lot, a LOT closer to God, and more at peace than I EVER did 'In the faith'

I have virtually no issues with the overview of Jesus teachings.
I do have certian problems with a few 'specifics'
For example you quote a verse which says "through me is the way"
I don't trust humans to translate the menu from McDonalds, much less Scripture. He was just as likely to have said "Through my teachings are the way"
--
I do have a problem with the 'one way only' because if Jesus is the only way, then knowing his name is the only way in, which once again is the "name Game Salvation" i reffered too earlier.
What about the people who never heard the name of Jesus?
What about the people who, like me, got sick of some of the hypocrisy that is "in the faith' and looked elsewhere?

Good people left out, bad people let in.
Admittedly none of us deserve heaven, but I know a lot of people who deserve eternal torment...and a lot of them are Christian.

Infact, should I make it to heaven (and according to even the 'Our way or Hell' Christians I get in on a technicallity.
When I was young I 'accepted Jesus" and the only way to loose him, biblically, is to renounce him. I've never renounced Jesus...just some of the idiots who claim to follow him)
anyway, if I should make it in, I plan on asking God a ton of questions

"most of which would be questioning what I'm sure is his fabulous plan, which would be really egotistical of me, I know"
(Bethany in Dogma)

and the whole idea of the Sacrafice of Christ is one of them.
--
anyway, I kinda suck at trying to string together my religious ideas and sound non-confrontational and make anything relateing to sense.
but do me a favor.
Rent Dogma, it echos most of my ideas, and read Anne Rices "Memnoch The Devil"
It states a few of my primary problems with Christianity.
I can look up a few of the specific chapters & pages if you just want to check it out of a library and see what I mean.
---
I'm gonna say this.
I don't know wether Christ was God, the Son of God, or just a very spiritual man.
I honestly don't think it matters at all to my opinion of his teachings. Most of which I truly agree with.
The thing is I'd say 90% of the people who call themselves Christian today, if they say Christ and heard to the same words come out of his mouth in a modern way.
They'd call him some "Whacko, New-Age Hippy"
--
D

Re: Re: QB again

Date: 04/28/2001
From: QBall79

Well, I'm glad to know you don't think I'm an asshole. :-P

"The Teachings of Christ aren't about religion, but Christianity has become, and is, a Religion"

To many, yes. Therein lies a large portion of the problem. As I have said, true Christianity is not found in religion. Salvation is not found in baptism or going to church. It is found through faith and acceptance.

"Wicca, Hinduism, and various forms of Mythology ... i felt a lot, a LOT closer to God, and more at peace than I EVER did 'In the faith'"

I'll remind you that Satan himself appears as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). It is very easy to be fooled by him, as he is a very real and very powerful force. Remember, Adam and Eve were conviced that eating the forbidden fruit would bring them closer to God.

"I don't trust humans to translate the menu from McDonalds, much less Scripture. He was just as likely to have said 'Through my teachings are the way'"

The Hebrew people are known for their accurate transcriptions of scripture. They didn't copy scriptures sentence by sentence or even word by word -- it was LETTER by LETTER. The attention to detail over the years was so scrutinous that when the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered and compared to the most recent manuscripts, they were virtually identical. The same is true of New Testament manuscripts, when you compare the old with the new. The Bible has more susviving manuscripts than any other piece of ancient literature. There is little doubt that Jesus said he was the only way.

Another point is that if Jesus was only one of many ways to God, to Heaven, then Jesus' death was in vain. If one can get to God through Wicca or Hinduism, then why do we need Jesus to die for our sins? According to your position, Jesus' death was totally unnecessary. Still, he went through with it, according to God's plan. The Bible says that "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22). That is why the sacrifice was necessary -- it was part of the law. But if all roads lead to God anyway, then the death of Christ was a total waste.

And you keep bringing up this "name game". It's not about that at all. You can call him Jesus, Yeshua, Christ, Messiah, what have you. But you have to accept him in order to overcome your sin.

"What about the people who never heard the name of Jesus?"

Not all Christians will agree with me on this, but I believe in an age of accountability. I believe that unless a person has reached a point where they can understand the Gospel and make an informed decision, they do not face Hell if they are taken. I ikewise believe that God forgives ignorance. I believe he makes exceptions for those who have never heard his name. After all, as he died on the cross, Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Ignorance is one thing; but outright rejection of Jesus and "salvation" results in that continued separation from God. You can reject hypocrisy all you want -- I think Jesus would agree. But rejecting hypocrisy and rejecting Jesus are two different things.

"Good people left out, bad people let in.
Admittedly none of us deserve heaven, but I know a lot of people who deserve eternal torment...and a lot of them are Christian."

I don't doubt it -- like I have said before, everyone deserves to be damned, including the Christians.

"When I was young I 'accepted Jesus' and the only way to loose him, biblically, is to renounce him."

Well, I happen to believe that once a person makes a truly informed decision and accepts Jesus' sacrifice, admits they are a sinner and begs his forgiveness, they are saved forever. I believe if they stray from God, they either weren't that serious to begin with, or weren't informed enough to understand the concept. From what I've heard from you, it sounds like some people steered you wrong, and you never had a true picture of what it was all about. I hope I'm helping to clear up some of the misconceptions you may have had, so that you can better make a decision, one way or the other.

"I don't know wether Christ was God, the Son of God, or just a very spiritual man."

He claimed to be God more than once. The Religious leaders of the time even took up stones to kill him at one point because of it. In the end, he was crucified for it.

"The thing is I'd say 90% of the people who call themselves Christian today, if they say Christ and heard to the same words come out of his mouth in a modern way.
They'd call him some 'Whacko, New-Age Hippy'"

I'd say that's entirely possible. I also think that if Christ were to walk into some of today's churches, he'd react in much the same way he did when he condemned the Pharisees and the money-changers in the temple.

Q-Ball79
http://www.slidersweb.net/

Another D Reply

Date: 04/28/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

I could go off on a bend about Lucifer,
or how the whole idea all other religions than Christianity are 'his tools' is one of the top 5 things I find most offensive 'in the faith' but I won't
I don't want to get started on a debate about Lucifer because, well multiple reasons
1-My ideas on him differ from Dogma so much it isn't funny
and
2-We don't know much about him
3-The only source we have for information is the guy who kicked him out...that's like listening to Stalins opinion on people who defected to the US.
--

I think it's safe to say God is more powerful than Lucifer, If he is so powerful in my years in the faith he definately had the power to make me feel closer to him than Lucifer could, but he didn't
So either I was following the wrong path for me, or he is one lazy diety (that last comment is ment mostly for humor)
--

As for the translation, like I said, I don't trust people to translate a menu from McDonalds.
So until I learn Hebrew (which I do plan to study) and personally translate it letter for letter, I'll continue to take all translations with a grain of salt.
Not to mention the fact Jesus himself didn't write down what he said, and the apostles may've changed a few words themselves.

As for Jesus death, I believe that was unecessary anyway.
It's better stated in Memnoch than I could ever put down here.
Like i said, if you want to check the book out of the library I can give you the pages/ chapters to look in.
but I feel Christs death was unecessary regardless of him being the 'only path' or not.
---

I know plenty of people who have accepted Jesus, who don't know jack about, or live by, his teachings.
I know pleanty of people who have never called out to Jesus, but DO live by his teachings.
Teachings are always greater than the teacher, THAT is the root of what I am saying.
I realize this is kinda me 'telling God what to do' but heck he gave me free will, my call to use it.
God should go by whether you got he message of loving & careing for one another...not who you got the message from...not what name you called Jesus or if you even believed in him, but if you got the message.
--
I disagree with everyone deserveing hell for all eternity, if the traditional Dogma is any indication.
True no one deserves heaven, but not everyone deserves Hell.
--

I don't 'believe I am a sinner' I know I am.
and I do ask God, whatever name he calls himself, to forgive me for those sins.
I just don't think names are as important as the message.
and a lot of other religions get/give that message just as well, if not better, than Christianity does.
(Wicca being one of the major ones)
---
You made a point, earlier, about how if the Hindus are right, I'm fine, if we're all wrong we just cease to exist.
but if you're & Infos god is true I'm in for some serious crap.

as I recall Brand_S is a Muslim.
If he is right, the whole lot of us are going to hell.
I don't see you praying to Allah.
I'm not gonna bow down to any being because I fear what MAY happen IF I'm wrong.

If the Norse where right, if none of us die in battle we're all going to Hel. (not mispelled)

I don't beleive in following any sets of laws/dogmas because I fear what will happen if I don't
I beleive in following what I think is the right path, the right ideas, and the right laws.
I am human, I am fallible, and I may very well be wrong.
But better to live in a way I'll die with few regrets and go to hell, than die with many and be sent to heaven.
I am a far harsher judge of myself & humanity than God could ever be.

Another Q-Ball Reply

Date: 04/28/2001
From: QBall79

"The only source we have for information is the guy who kicked him out..."

I'd say God is a pretty reliable source. And since God made the rules, since it is ultimately he who decides what id right or wrong, I think it's pretty safe to say he had a good reason for kicking Lucifer to the curb. I tend to believe the Bible's account -- that Lucifer got jealous of God's power and decided to overthrow him. Of course, he was foolish enough not to understand that there was no way he could do that, and still he tries to beat God by turning as many people against him as he can.

"I think it's safe to say God is more powerful than Lucifer, If he is so powerful in my years in the faith he definately had the power to make me feel closer to him than Lucifer could, but he didn't..."

I don't know how "in the faith" you were, and I don't know how old you were when you were "in the faith," but I'm guessing that you didn't have ample time to seek God and experience things like his provision, his care or even just his presence. I still think your view has been clouded by circumstances beyond your control.

While it is true that God is more powerful than Lucifer, that he could make everyone like him and worship him, it would be an unfair abuse of his power for him to do such a thing. He has given us free will -- he has allowed us to choose the path we will -- he doesn't coerce us into a relationship. He doesn't bend over backwards to please us. He pretty much says, "This is who I am. Take me or leave me." Whether you accept or reject his plan is your own decision. He doesn't try to make it for you.

Satan, on the other hand, will do anything in his power to bring you to his side -- why? -- because he knows his fate, and he wants to bring everyone he can with him. And he's not working alone -- let's not forget he has 1/3 of the angels on his side too.

"As for the translation, like I said, I don't trust people to translate a menu from McDonalds. So until I learn Hebrew (which I do plan to study) and personally translate it letter for letter, I'll continue to take all translations with a grain of salt."

The people who translated the scripture studied Hebrew and Ancient Greek for YEARS before they translated the Bible. They were and are true scholars. The only true limitation in the translations is the inherent inferiority of the English language. Still, in most cases, the message written in Greek or Hebrew is accurately presented. Even Greek and Hebrew scholars today don't contest the past translations because they have translated them themselves and come up with the same thing. There have, of course, been new translations in recent years, but this is only because of the evolution of the English language -- they're updating the translation for the way we talk now.

I do encourage you to study Hebrew and Greek -- I wish I could read those languages, because I would much prefer to read the Bible in those much more beautiful and richer languages. I don't doubt that you will get a lot more out of the scriptures when you read them in their original form. It won't be easy, though -- and it will take you years of dedicated study to reach the level of the scholars who translated the English versions we have today.

"As for Jesus death, I believe that was unecessary anyway.
It's better stated in Memnoch than I could ever put down here."

I think this is one of your major issues: you think you know better than God does. You also think Kevin Smith and Rice, other mere imperfect humans know better than God. I don't believe God would sacrifice his SON if it wasn't absolutely necessary. I don't think you'll ever be able to accept God for who he truly is until you can admit that he knows everything better than you. He knows you better than you know yourself. And he knows what is necessary and what isn't. I don't believe God does anything unnecessarily -- he always has a reason, whether or not we can see or understand it. He's omniscient -- that means he knows better than you, than Anne Rice, than Mark Twain, than Kevin Smith, than Lucifer. That's part of the faith that is involved here -- faith that God knows best. That he knows what he's doing.

"I know plenty of people who have accepted Jesus, who don't know jack about, or live by, his teachings.
I know pleanty of people who have never called out to Jesus, but DO live by his teachings.
Teachings are always greater than the teacher, THAT is the root of what I am saying."

I already told you that not everyone who claims to be Christian will be saved. And I thought I made it clear that there is more to being a Christian than following the teachings of Jesus. Jesus' teachings were great, yes, and we should even follow them, but that does NOT save us. Even those who follow the teachings of Jesus are sinners, and FAR from perfect -- FAR from measuring up to God's standard. It's not so much about Jesus' teaching as it is about Jesus' sacrifice, because without that sacrifice, there is no salvation.

"I realize this is kinda me 'telling God what to do' but heck he gave me free will, my call to use it.
God should go by whether you got he message of loving & careing for one another...not who you got the message from...not what name you called Jesus or if you even believed in him, but if you got the message."

Yes, you are telling God what to do, and you are exercising the free will he gave you. I can't argue with you there. But God cannot go by whether or not you "get the message" -- that's part of it, but there's still that sin problem that plagues us all, and God cannot have anything to do with sin. It's not that he won't -- it's that he can't. Yes, there are some things God can't do. He too has a nature -- a Godly nature.

Your point about Islam is well taken, and very true. But I have seen the evidence for the reliability of the Bible (some of which I have shared in this thread), and it has been proven more reliable than any other ancient text.

It is because of reasons like this that I have no doubt in the accuracy and reliability of the Bible. I believe it's true -- all of it.

"I don't beleive in following any sets of laws/dogmas because I fear what will happen if I don't"

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. Truth is not relative.

"I am human, I am fallible, and I may very well be wrong."

True, but do you really want to be wrong here?

"But better to live in a way I'll die with few regrets and go to hell, than die with many and be sent to heaven."

I can pretty much guarantee that if you end up in Hell, you'll have more than a few regrets. I also doubt that you'd regret it if you ended up in Heaven. I know that if I lived my entire life according to my own way, I'd enjoy it while I was alive, but if I had to suffer for the rest of eternity because of it, I'd probably rethink my priorities -- but by then it would be too late to change. On the other hand, if I decided to try as hard as I could to live for God, missed out on some sinful pleasures, and went to Heaven in the end, I'd say it was a small price to pay.

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" --Mark 8:36

The ball's in your court. :-)

Q-Ball79
http://www.slidersweb.net/

yet another D-reply

Date: 04/28/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

Point by point

"I'd say God is a pretty reliable source. And since God made the rules, since it is ultimately he who decides what id right or wrong, I think it's pretty safe to say he had a good reason for kicking Lucifer to the curb"

basically Might makes Right?
I'm speaking more hypothetically here than what I actually believe.
but we only know one side of the story.
had Hitler won & wrote history books I'm quite sure he would have been painted as the hero.
it's like you & me debateing here. In my opinion, I'm right, in your opinion, you're right, in someone elses there may be a place in the middle.
It's like we had a trial where the defendant wasn't even allowed to speak.

Not to mention there's the whole other thing. Supposedly, atleast as I was taught in the many years I studied the Bible (I always studied it) we where given Free Will, that is what seperates us from all other beings.
How the hell does a being without free will Rebel?
The Devil is as vital to Gods plan as Jesus was.
What good is a free will if there are no choices?

"I don't think you'll ever be able to accept God for who he truly is until you can admit that he knows everything better than you. He knows you better than you know yourself. "
I believe that already.
I just view God in a different way than Church Dogma does.

"It's not so much about Jesus' teaching as it is about Jesus' sacrifice, because without that sacrifice, there is no salvation. "

yet believeing in that sacrafice doesn't mean you don't deserve hell more than a lot of people who Don't believe it.
My Uncle very much believed in the Sacrafice of Jesus.
That doesn't mean he shouldn't be rotting in hell for eternity.
heck, he deserves a place worse than hell is made out to be.

"Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. Truth is not relative."

"but what is Truth? Is Truth unchangeing law?
We both have Truths, are mine the same as yours?"
---

You know I think I've focused too much on my problems with Christianitys Dogmas and ideas here

I agree with a lot of Jesus teachings and ideals.
What I do not agree with is a lot of the dogma that's been forced down after it, and the silly idea that the Old Testament & the New Testament belong together.

Jesus teaches of a loveing God, and that is one thing the God of the old testament never was.

I am still a follower of Christ, but I refuse to be a Christian, i know that doesn't make a lot of sense.
I do believe in a loveing God.
I believe Christ taught the words of God.

I also don't think God could be cruel enough to look at someone like Ghandi, or the Dali Lama and say to them "by human standards you where a wonderful person. You did your very best to fill the world with love and acceptance. You where basically as good a person as is humanly possible....but you neve asked Jesus to forgive you for the things you did wrong, so you're going to hell"

To me, that is as cruel ,and as mean, as any Cosmic Being could get.
It's such a silly little way to decide who gets in & who doesn't

When I was young I remember hearing "Our God is a Jealous God" and to me that never made a single drop of sense.
He's a Cosmic Power, he created the universe...and he has an inferiority complex?
Jealousy is such a bad thing we don't even like it in other humans.
---
When it comes down too it, I still consider myself a follower of Christ.
I do my best to follow his teachings of passive resistance (I speak very vehemntly, but I would never raise a weapon to anyone, or try to force people to agree with my ideals)
Very much a follower of his ideals.

The only major problem I have with the Christian faith is the area that one MUST believe in Jesus, by some name, to be saved.
That's just a stupid way do it.
It's an unjust, unloving, uncareing way to do it.
Gunning by who got the message, who listened to the message, is always the most important thing.
---
You said before there are those among Christianity, who believe thatwhoever doesn't follow their ideas exactly is as bad as a Satanist, or something to that effect.

Despite my love of debate and ideals, I believe much along with the bible, in how to live ones life.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs (although technically that covers drinking & smokeing)
I don't have sex.
i don't fight (physically) unless it's self-defense.
--
My main fault is in believeing God has a sense of humor, and God has something resembleing a basic sense of fairness, or justice, or whatever you wish to call it.

To me the whole idea one must believe in Jesus somehow is the very essance OF "the name game"
The major problem I have with the Christian religion.
The message is always the most important thing, regardless of the messanger.
Who you where, is, or should be, more important than who you worshipped.

and the idea that God, a supposedly loveing being, would say 'you got the message, you tried, you loved, you cared, you realized you weren't perfect, you asked for forgiveness, but you didn't ask from the right name, you didn't ask it from the guy who died on the cross" is not loving in the slightest.
it's cruel, it's cold, it's unworthy of anyones worship, or respect.

That is the root of my problem with Christian Tradition, Christian Religion, Christian Dogma.

When it comes down to it the Jesus only factor, the "Call out to this name or hell" is the ultimate in evil.

Other than that idea I have very few problems with the faith, ones I can live with atleast.

I myself do pray to Jesus, I do believe he was atleast,in some way, Holy.
I also believe, judgeing by the fact that he was a guy who hung out with the Whores and Tax Collectors.
That he said to God, about the people who ahd just killed him "forgive them"
That he was a being who always advocated love...he has more than enough love to not care what name you called God.
Enough love not to care if you called him God, or Goddess or Spirit or Vishnu or Allah.
Enough love to care more about, and judge by, who you truly where, than what specific little dogmas you followed.
I think God takes in the whole picture of the person, instead of just judgeing on one factor that doesn't really say anything about them.
---
I go with a God I'd WANT to spend eternity with, a God who I find just & loving & careing.
Beyond any faiths teachings of him.
--
D

Another Q-Ball reply

Date: 04/28/2001
From: QBall79

"basically Might makes Right? ... had Hitler won & wrote history books I'm quite sure he would have been painted as the hero."

No, might does not make right. Did Hitler make the Jews? Did he create the Negroid race? No. Did God create Lucifer/Satan? Did he create humankind? Yes. Therein lies the difference.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." --Colossians 1:16,17

According to the scriptures, we were created BY God and FOR God. The only reason we were created was because God wanted us. I don't think it's all that unreasonable that he would want to punish us, or "kick us to the curb", so to speak, if we went against his wishes.

If you were to succeed in creating an android, or some kind of robot, that possessed artificial intellegence, and could actually had some sort of free will, and that robot went off and did something of which you did not approve, and kept on doing it again and again, despite your repeated commands to stop, I'm betting you would want to kick it to the curb. Turn it off. Kill it. If you make something, and it doesn't do what you intended, you either fix it or you destroy it. In this case, the only real way to fix the robot would be to take away its free will. That way, it would listen and obey your commands.

Do you see anything wrong with doing that to your own creation? I don't. After all, it's yours. You made it, and you have a right to make it do what you want it to do.

The same applies here. God made us. We are his creation. Like my hypothetical android, he gave us free will. We have used that free will to defy him time and again. He has every right to take away our free will or even destroy us. THAT would be evil. THAT would be selfish. Or would it? Doesn't he have that right? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to just get rid of us?

But he doesn't change us. He lets us keep our free will and do as we please. He realizes that a forced relationship isn't a relationship at all -- if he took away our free will, we would be his toys.

Likewise, Satan is a creation of God, and God has the right to punish him if he doesn't do right by him.

We might not like it, but it isn't our place to tell God how it's done. Imagine if your android tried to tell you how you should do things. You'd probably be pretty pissed. After all, he's just an android -- what does HE know about being a human? Who is HE to talk?

You seeing the parallel here?

God could have and should have kicked us to the curb long ago, like he did with the people of Noah's time, and Sodom and Gommorrah. But instead, he chose to love us, and offer a way to overcome the wall that separates us from him. That's not stupid, or unjust, or uncaring. It's merciful. It's unwarranted. It's unnecessary. It's undeserved.

"yet believeing in that sacrafice doesn't mean you don't deserve hell more than a lot of people who Don't believe it. My Uncle very much believed in the Sacrafice of Jesus.
That doesn't mean he shouldn't be rotting in hell for eternity. heck, he deserves a place worse than hell is made out to be."

I've already expressed my agreement on this point many times. So once more: I AGREE!!! As for what hell is really like vs. what it is made out to be, I doubt mankind has even touched the surface of what Hell is like. All we really know is that it's a torturous place where suffering never ends. It's even up for debate whether fire is involved. But I digress.

"but what is Truth? Is Truth unchangeing law?
We both have Truths, are mine the same as yours?"

Jesus Christ Superstar -- nice. I'm a fan of it too. Sometimes even rhetorical qustions have answers. Yes, truth is unchanging law. One plus one is two, no matter how much you'd like it to be three. You might even decide you believe with all your heart that one plus one is really three, but like I've said before, that doesn't make it true. So yes, there are absolute truths.

I think you see what I'm trying to say, even if you don't agree or accept it. I'm just teling you what I know. I'm not going to damn you to hell if you say you don't like it -- that's between you and God. But I hope and pray you make the right choice in time.

Q-Ball79
http://www.slidersweb.net/

D Replying...again

Date: 04/29/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

as for the android piece.
I wouldn't create & give something free will unless I wanted it to use it & see how it'd turn out. And even if it turned out to be a Jerry Oconnell fan I wouldn't destroy it.
I'd never destroy anything with a level of sentiance unless mine or someone i cared fors life was in immidiate danger.

Your point about 'what does he know about being human' is in one way good & in another bad.
I don't define humanity as blood & bone, I define humanity as a way of thinking & acting...usually a very evil & stupid way of thinking & acting.

An android who thinks & has free will IS human.
Therefore he knows as much about being human as i do.
For lack of better example, Data from Star Trek was human (atleast after he got the emotion chip) as human as any other member of the crew.

but I'm turning this into a definition of human debate when We're attempting a religious debate so.

My main problem with the whole deal of his creating us is God is, Supposedly, Omnicient (sp?), he knows everything that will happen.

He created Lucifer knowing the only thing Lucifer COULD ever do was rebel.
He created Lucifer knowing that he would lead ONLY to suffering & pain for humanity.
Then isn't he atleast partially to blame for his doings?
Atleast some tiny fraction to blame for Lucifers doings?

If God is all knowing, of present,past & future then there was nothing else we could do but be who we are.
and if there is nothing we could be but who we are, then do we really have Free Will?

Although I will admit, as said in "Sandman" destinies are often a suprise to the destined.
So perhaps in not knowing our future we have free will, even if the result is predetermined.

oh crap now I'm answering my own questions.
---

I keep missing the point i'm trying to make on deservation of hell.
In many other cultures, Egypt & Greece being main examples.
The system for who got where wasn't as much on who you worshipped it was a basis on who you where.

When you died the judges would take your heart (soul) & place it on a scale.
If the evil in your heart outweighed the good in it, you went to Tartatrus (greek Hell) or where Annihilated, destroyed, obliterated (Egyptian.)
If your good outweighed your evil, then you went to the Elysian Fields (Greece) or simply got into the afterlife (Egyptian)

It was more based on your actual character as a person than what you believed.
and to me that seems so immensely just & fair, and loving.
A lot moreso than 'if you believed in Jesus"
That's why I tend toward God going into that way of judgement rather than having a "Only Jesus believers past this point' sign on the Pearly Gates.

I believe in a God who'd look at someone like Ghandi & say "come on in" instead of "sorry" and point to the "only" sign.

Why do I believe that?
Because I honestly want nothing to do with a God who'd send Ghandi to hell, and let the entire KKK in (they all believe in Jesus, they all ask forgiveness from him, although they don't believe a lot of the evil they do is a sin)

The "Jesus only' clause seems insanely stupid to me.
When I've met so many people who I'd LOVE to spend eternity with, who aren't Christian, and so many people I'd reather not spend eternity with..who are.
---
---
Also, something in your previous post.
I never said I thought Smith or Rice or Twain where more 'right than God'
I'm saying they echo what I believe to some extent, and format it better than I could.
---

So you're a Jesus Christ Superstar fan too huh?
I love that musical, the times I've watched it I felt far closer to God than I ever did in Church.

I prefer the more 'human' like depictions of Jesus.
A Jesus who truly didn't want to die but did it anyway.
Which is part of the reason I don't like Church, they focus so much on the idea he was God, they forget that biblically he was Human too.

I use "What is Truth" not as 'One plus one" but as aspects of religion.
No one knows the entire truth.
The thing about God is, by definition, he is perfect. That is why he is God, we're imperfect, which is why we're not.
Imperfection can't understand perfection.
It's like asking a cube to understand a sphere.
It's like trying to explain to a man in the middle of the amazon who has never seen Electricity, what a Computer is.

Imperfection cannot possibly understand pefection.
in other words, We're all wrong, it's just a matter of by how much.
--
If My fault is overstimateing Gods sense of justice, so be it.
---

Like I said, before I do worship Jesus & God, the same ones you do, I just have a different idea on how he judges who gets in.
You said before you dislike the idea that some Christians have about 'believe exactly as I do, or they're going to hell"
I belive a lot the same with you, admittedly I'm a guy who'd go up to God & debate everything with him, for 2 reasons
1-I want to know
&
2-I'm a Master Debater (couldn't resist)
--
My view differs from your's mostly, on the criteria of entry unto heaven.
I say it's more about who you where, you say it's more about who you worshipped.

Do you really think Gods gonna send me to hell cause I figured he'd be kind enough to let Ghandi in?
Admittedly I say a LOT of things that'd piss the big guy off more, such as defending Satan (although when one thinks about all Christians should pray for Satan.
After all we pray for other sinners, why not the one who needs it most?)
but those I do more as preparation.
Should I make it to heaven I plan on spending my first million or so years there simply asking/debateing things of/with God.
God made my nature & I'm quite sure if I'm going there he's already got lots of the answers prepared.
--
D

My closing words

Date: 04/29/2001
From: QBall79

I've pretty much said all I can on this, but I will address your last reply, and wrap up my part of this discussion.

I understand your point about the android, but personally feel that most people, if put in that situation, would want to destroy it or change it -- regardless, I knew it wasn't the best example in the world, so I'll try to modify it a bit, to make it more accurate.

Let's say that this android had an incurable flatulence problem. (Please, bear with me on this.) The problem is part of the android's nature -- and they are the most rotten farts you have ever smelled. They affect your nasal passages in such a way that you simply cannot be around them -- on gasmask or scented candle helps. They may even be deadly...

Okay, I had this whole analogy in my head, but realized that it really didn't work either. The fact is that there are too many layers here for any one analogy to fit every single element. So given these limitations, I will give you what I was going for in a nutshell -- the farts were supposed to represent sin. God, as the Bible says, cannot look upon sin, as part of his nature. Likewise, you couldn't stand the android's farts, and neither could any other human. As a result, you would pretty much just have to separate yourself from that android, just as we are separated from God because of sin. Of course, in our case, Jesus came down to absorb our "farts", and take the blame. (The problem here was I couldn't accurately or realistically come up with an android Messiah that is inherently human as well, as Jesus was human and God -- as if the whole android idea was realistic anyway, right?). But in any case, I hope you can see my point. God has to separate himself from sin and anyone whose sin has not been covered by Jesus' sacrifice. Yes, he died for all, but you have to accept it and turn from your sin in order for it to take effect. Anyway, that's the best I can do for this multi-layered situation -- I tried to cover as many layers as I could, but as you see, it's pretty much impossible -- that whole finite trying to explain the infinite thing, I suppose.

"He created Lucifer knowing the only thing Lucifer COULD ever do was rebel.
He created Lucifer knowing that he would lead ONLY to suffering & pain for humanity.
Then isn't he atleast partially to blame for his doings?
Atleast some tiny fraction to blame for Lucifers doings?"

Foreknowledge does not equal ordination. Yes, God knew Satan would rebel. He knew man would fall. But he gave them the choice -- the ball was in their court, and they willingly went their own way. That's why the plan of redemption was in place pretty much from the beginning (there are allusions and prophecy as early as Genesis). He knew what was going to happen, and so he made a way to fix it as best as could be done, and in a way that didn't diminish our free will.

Yes, he could have prevented Satan from rebelling; he could have prevented Adam and Eve from eating the forbidden fruit, but it he did, he would have to throw free will out the window.

"If God is all knowing, of present,past & future then there was nothing else we could do but be who we are.
and if there is nothing we could be but who we are, then do we really have Free Will?"

As I said above, God KNEW who we would be, but he did not ORDAIN it. We made the choice. We do have free will. The minute God starts making decisions for us, free will waves bye-bye. But until then, it's just foreknowledge. The decisions are still ours to make.

I actually have a theory on how God views time (foreknowledge, etc.), analogus though it may be -- again, it's a finite interpretation of an infinite God. If you'd like to hear it, I'll share it with you sometime.

Many of the other points you brought up were the same points you have been bringing up throughout the entire discussion (i.e., the Egyptians did it this way, and I like that better -- the KKK's going to heaven and Ghandi's going to Hell). I have addressed those points in earlier replies, as well as my view of the "only Jesus" thing. I don't intend to repost what I have already written, so I encourage you to go back and reread them -- you might even find something you didn't know was there!

"I've met so many people who I'd LOVE to spend eternity with..."

Doe God happen to be one of them? Because that's what it's really all about. It's not about you or an eternity with your friends -- it's about an eternity with God. I kind of doubt I'll spend nearly as much time with my earthly friends in heaven as I will with God himself -- I mean, there's so much I can learn from him, and an eternity will probably not be enough to gain all the knowledge there is to be gained.

"So you're a Jesus Christ Superstar fan too huh?
I love that musical, the times I've watched it I felt far closer to God than I ever did in Church."

Yeah, I know what you mean -- it paints a more realistic picture of who Jesus was -- not only a divine being, God incarnate, but also a human with all the struggles we face -- than do other attempts to show Jesus' last days.

"I prefer the more 'human' like depictions of Jesus.
A Jesus who truly didn't want to die but did it anyway."

Me too -- after all, the fact that he didn't want to die but did anyway makes it an even more amazing sacrifice.

"Imperfection cannot possibly understand pefection."

I agree with you there -- though it doesn't mean that the minute pieces we do know and/or understand are wrong.

"I say it's more about who you where, you say it's more about who you worshipped."

My simple reply: your criteria differs from the criteria of God as described in the Bible. You claim to worship that God, yet you have your own idea of how to get to him, rather than going by what he said you must do.

"Do you really think Gods gonna send me to hell cause I figured he'd be kind enough to let Ghandi in?"

As I recall, that isn't the unpardonable sin. ;-)
I've mentioned clearly what the Bible says about salvation, and all I can do is point to that. Go back and read through it -- it's all there. You can take it or leave it -- either way, I won't judge you or think less of you as a person, because in all honesty, I'm no better than you are.

"Should I make it to heaven I plan on spending my first million or so years there simply asking/debateing things of/with God. God made my nature & I'm quite sure if I'm going there he's already got lots of the answers prepared."

I really hope you get that chance. If you do, leave me a front-row ticket at will-call. :-)

Good discussion... I think we both learned a lot about each other, and understand where each other are coming from to some extent. Any other posters who read it now know more about us, which could be either good or bad, I suppose. In any case, thanks for sharing with me, and I hope we can do it again sometime.

Q-Ball79
http://www.slidersweb.net/

Thanks QB

Date: 04/29/2001
From: HunterD_Raven

We may disagree on a few points, but I think we're both coming from the same place, only we've formed different opinions as life went on.

Boy, whoever read this must've had fun reading it.
hey Info, I'm quite sure you couldn't resist reading all of it, what's you're "Closeing Words"
--
and should I make it 'Up above' and get to debate with the Big Man himself, I'll make sure to mention to leave you & Info some front row seats.

I admit I'm a guy who loves playing Devils Advocate...literally.
They say the Devil still gets to visit heaven occasionally (asking permission to tempt)
I can definately picture trying to talk God into a big court deal for all of Heaven & Hell to see.
Maybe me as the sole person from Heaven on the Devils Dream Defense Team.
(Hellbound member is Johnny Cochran.
"You did the sin, stop blamin him" ?) ;)
--
(yes that last part is mostly humor.)

My thoughts...

Date: 04/29/2001
From: Informant

I was hooked on this discussion. I think it could probably get better ratings thant Survivor if we put you two on tv with a camera on you.

I pretty much agree with QBall, which is why I was able to resist posting... though I typed up a few posts, I just didn't want to destroy the flow. I'm actually upset at both of you for ending the talk. I was hoping it would last through the Hollywood strikes and provide an entertaining summer.

I have some thoughts on what was said, but still don't want to ruin the flow of what was said. I'm sure I'll get another chance to discuss this with you at a later time.

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