Once
More About Buffy...
Date: 09/10/2002
From: SL4ever
I've been writing the following off and on since last Tuesday, so forgive any rambling and my longwindedness. :-O
So there it is. Tara’s dead, Willow’s off the chain and tonight on UPN we’ll see the beginning of the end for Warren (though the actor’s admitted elsewhere on the Dominion that he makes some kind of appearance this year coming up).Now that I’ve seen about 90% of last season I feel like I can finally comment on all the negativity I’ve heard from other fans (some here and some elsewhere). Assisting me will be Butty the Negative Sprayer, who has agreed to play the part of negative Buffy fans.
Butty: “The earlier seasons were funnier, the show has lost it’s sense of humor. This season was too dark!”
I’ve seen the first two seasons on DVD, and a smattering of eps from 3-5 and I agree that one reason the show is so charming is its sense of humor, especially in-character humor and social/pop culture satire.
What I don’t understand is how anyone can look at season six and say they lost their sense of humor! Every episode was loaded with as many funny moments and lines as any previous seasons I’ve seen. The Geek Trio alone had me rolling on the floor. I couldn’t breathe for ten minutes after seeing the Boba Fett/Spike scene. The Buffy/Spike relationship spawned many great lines. True, humor is relative, but I have to wonder if the people repeatedly making this statement were watching the same episodes as I.
Butty: “The writing really sucked this season.”
Again, this is relative. It all depends on what your flavor is. If you like Agatha Christie style mysteries, then you’re going to think that Columbo sucks tons of ASS because the killer is revealed in the first reel. That doesn’t mean Columbo is badly written.
Personally, I think season six of Buffy is a masterpiece of writing but this is only evident after the fact. This season was a 22 act play that can only be truly appreciated if viewed all together. I think you have to sit down and watch all of the episodes over a couple days HAVING ALREADY SEEN THEM BEFORE to fully appreciate the writing. Fortunately I had heard enough spoilers that I could spot what the writers were doing in the early episodes.
For instance, episodes 6 (All The Way) through 10 (Wrecked) clearly set up and foreshadow the dramatic final three episodes of the season, ten episodes down the line! You could even make a case that they were setting it up from the first show of the season. Think about it, an entire season devoted to making the 3 act finale as powerful as it was. Sure, the season took a couple detours along the way but it was heading towards the finale from the beginning. What happened with Colin in Season Four of Sliders shows how hard it is to maintain that kind of season long focus.
The danger of this kind of writing is that the viewer can’t appreciate the beauty of what is going on until it is all over. The first pass through the eps you can easily think you’re seeing crappy writing because you don’t know where they are taking you. “Wrecked” is a cheesy and weak drug addiction metaphor the first time you watch it. Drug addiction is bad? Really? It’s hard to recover from drug addition? No way! But watch the season once and then go back and see “Wrecked” again and it’s like “Oh my god! Her eyes! This is where it starts. This is how she got to where she was after Tara died. And then you understand the writers are doing a lot more than a cheesy anti drug story. They are setting up something five months later.
The moment at the end of “Seeing Red” when Willow’s eyes turned black would have had little emotional impact if not for “Wrecked” and some of the other eps that had come before. But the way the season was written, when that moment comes the viewer is like “Oh. My. God. Warren’s fat ass is OUT!”
This kind of early foreshadowing and setup is commonplace in novels. What non writers might not realize is that it rarely happens in the first draft of the novel (unless you’re an anal outliner). Most of the setup and foreshadowing comes after the rough draft of the novel is finished and you go through it for a second and third time. It is unheard of for a entire TV series season to be written this way. But this season, viewed in its entirety, feels like all 22 scripts were rough drafted and then the writers went back and fine tuned them all so they mesh perfectly. A simple season outline couldn’t have accomplished what we saw.
What we saw in season six wasn’t just good writing, it was genius. Instead of the accolades the writers deserve, they’ve been hammered by short sighted viewers so much that even Joss is sounding like he’s bought into the criticisms. All this about returning to their roots and him paying more attention to Buffy this season and etc. That’s too bad because I think that if there was a school for TV script writers I would pick Buffy Season Six out of any other season of television in history to illustrate the perfect way you should do it.
That’s not saying every season should be written this way. I think a series needs 4-5 years under its belt to get away with a 22 act play. This season happened at the perfect time in the show’s evolution. I expect season seven to be very different and that’s okay.
This is already hideously long for a criticism response, but one more comment (with feeling) on the writing this season.
If Buffy season six is the high water mark of the series (and I obviously believe it is) then “Once More With Feeling” is the finest hour of the finest season. But not for the reason you might think.
Sweet (the dancing demon, if you will) says near the end of that ep that all the secrets everyone has been trying to hide have come out and that not one of them “can say this ended well.” What the viewers watching the night this first aired couldn’t know was how right he was. Not since “One Son” in The X-Files has one episode had such a dramatic and lasting impact on a TV series. As great music and vocal performances are they are dwarfed by a multitude of dramatic foreshadowing and turning points presented in this episode. We’d be lucky as viewers to see one third of this drama in a single episode of a typical TV series.
But in the musical we get:
1) Buffy finally reveals to her friends that she had been pulled from heaven, not “some hellish realm”
2) Tara discovers Willow has been using magic on her. This eventually leads to the two breaking up.
3) Giles realizes he is holding Buffy back and decides to go back to England.
4) Spike and Buffy kiss for the first time. This leads to all kinds of drama. :-P
5) Dawn steals something from the Magic Shop. I missed a couple eps that preceded the musical so I don’t know if this is her first on-screen theft but her kleptomania certainly impacts future episodes.
6) Xander and Anya’s relationship issues and what will happen later in the season is clearly foreshadowed in this ep. Again, I don’t know if the this is the first indication that Xander has doubts, but either way they are brought to the forefront.
I think that it in no way diminishes how great the music to say that the reason this episode is the most important one of the series is because of what happens between the notes.
Butty: “Giles being gone so much ruined the season.”
I love Giles. He always has great lines and delivers them perfectly every time. His relationship with Buffy has never stopped being interesting. But I realized something last week. I had gotten so involved in the other characters and what was going on that I had forgotten to miss Giles! I hadn’t expected this to happen but the truth is when you have all the drama between Buffy and Spike, Willow and Tara, Buffy and Dawn, and Xander and Anya you don’t really have room for Giles to do anything but stand around and make a couple of his patented comments. And this is not even taking into account Willow’s season long slide towards the dark side. I hope that Giles comes back in season seven and is in every ep but he would have taken away something in season six had he been around the entire time. One of those intriguing plotlines would have suffered or not existed at all. The dozen or so eps Giles missed weren’t worth what we would have lost.
Butty: “The Geek Trio were the lamest villains EVER!”
I prefer to think of them as a great new direction. We’ve had the Master, Spike, secret government organizations, and whatever else Buffy faces in the middle three seasons. Three regular schmoes providing season long comic relief and social satire while setting up the best season ending arc of the show’s history is definitely a different direction. In this case different is fantastic. After endless weeks of fighting fantasy monsters it is always chilling when Buffy faces real human evil. Before this season the writers only flirted with this idea and I think it was about time they devoted an entire season to it.
In summary, I think that this past season is a masterpiece that won’t be truly appreciated by most fans until it’s on DVD. Which brings up an interesting point. I think the growing trend of TV series are being released in season box sets is going to impact the way seasons are written. I think we’re going to start seeing more season long arcs and early episodes setting up finales. This could be good or bad. Probably bad because I’m not confident that many writers are as talented as the ones Joss has assembled.
In other Buffy news, at DragonCon I purchased a bootleg Buffy DVD that had “Once More With Feeling” “Hush” and the unaired pilot on it. Have any of you seen the unaired pilot? The most shocking thing was the atrocity of another actress playing the role of Willow. The fact that this other actress was a hosebeast was not nearly as horrible as the fact that she couldn’t act if her life depended on it. Thank GOD Joss replaced her with Alyson Hannigan! The Principal for this ep was an actor I like however. I can’t remember his name but he’s been in a lot of stuff and I wish he had stayed with the show until he got eaten. LOL
Riff
Regan, baggage and preconceptions
Date: 09/10/2002
From: ThomasMalthus
BT will be played by Riff Regan.First of all, let me say that if anyone other than Alyson Hannigan had played Willow, I doubt the show would have lasted as long as it has. I haven't viewed the unaired pilot, but I have heard from everyone who has seen it that Ms. Regan was singularly awful in the part. This could be just due to comparisons to Aly that are perhaps unfair; but nonetheless I think it would have been safe to say a "Buffy" without Alyson Hannigan wouldn't have been nearly as interesting to watch.
I think your comments on "Buffy" Season Six are dead on. I loved it, even though most didn't seem to. What I most didn't understand were people who said they loved the first eight episodes, some of the middle eps were pretty good and that the ending was cool, but they "hated" the season? How is that possible?
The criticisms of Butty the Negative Sprayer above are true to what has been said in maligning this season by most Buffy "fans". However, there are a large amount of people who had their minds made up prior to the season they were going to hate certain things. They were going to hate Dawn, Tara, Giles leaving, Buffy with Spike, Willow and Tara together, etc. and nothing Whedon and co. could do could change their minds. To me, this is quite sad and takes away a great amount of enjoyment of the show.
There are other season why some people can't just enjoy the season. Spike/Buffy shippers hate the rape scene. Personally I think it was funny that so many people even considered it a rape scene. First of all, nobody was raped. Second of all, I don't think if Buffy was in the hospital in traction she would have allowed Spike to rape her, much less just sporting a bruise that apparently didn't stop her from putting the kibosh on an all-powerful Warren before the ep was up. Third of all, did everyone see how the relationship started? We're not talking flowers and candy. This was a rough and ready relationship from the beginning.
Willow/Tara fans hate that Tara was murdered. So much so that they've taken it as a literary hate crime committed by Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon (and Steve DeKnight, who actually wrote the episode in question, naturally). They see it as part of a conspiracy on Joss' part and point out how many women have been killed on the show as proof that Joss is a misogynist. That accusation never fails to get a chuckle out of me. Joss had it right, if he felt he couldn't kill Tara because she was gay it would have been as discriminatory as if he had had to kill her because she was gay.
Also, there was a great deal of impatience. People in certain Buffy fan communities had been talking about Evil Willow ever since Season Five's "Tough Love". They had huge expectations...and were ultimately let down by the fact it was only three episodes. Never mind that Team Whedon never promised them anything else, or even an Evil Willow at all. Even AICN's Hercules, normally a very patient fan, complained that Evil Willow "didn't do enough".
So in conclusion to this lengthy, rambling reply, I'm going to say that people found reasons not to like Season Six among all the things that were there that made it enjoyable. Perhaps they were unprepared for such a different season of "Buffy", perhaps they wanted a Big Bad with a stronger, season-long presence, or perhaps they're still Willow and Xander shippers, wincing everytime Willow and Tara kiss or Anya makes an inappropriate remark about Xander's anatomy. Whatever the reason, I believe these people need to chill out, sit back and watch the season all over again, as you suggest.
ThomasMalthus
My
reply...
Date: 09/10/2002
From: Informant
BT is evil Willow!I agree that this season had some good humor (not the ice cream) in it. But the darkness and gloom kinda clouded it. Which I'm not upset over. I liked season 6. It wasn't a funny year, but life isn't always funny.
I totally agree about this season being well crafted and like one big story that you have to view as a whole. But since you didn't see a lot of the series, you probably don't know that the entire series is like that. Willow's arc began pretty much when the show began. Her magic addiction has been building since around season 3, and Giles warned her about the dangers of going through the magic door back in "Becoming" at the end of season 2. In season 4, she bagan the act she's been putting on (when you see "Restless", you'll get it better) and her addiction. So when she finally fell into Xander's arms at the end of season 5, crying, that was years and years of built up pain and suffering being released finally.
It's been an amazing arc to watch. Probably the best on tv ever because they managed to have the sweetest girl in the world turn into the most dangerous baddie they've ever faced and it all made perfect sense because the lines were blended so well. I didn't like Willow since sometime in season 4, but when she finally broke down in the season 6 finale, and I saw all of that pain, I realized what she's been going through and now I feel so bad for her, even watching seasons 4 and 5.
I think the first time her eyes turned black were in season 5's "Tough Love", but I might be forgetting something. Amy's eyes turned black in season 2, but she was able to get into the powerful stuff faster than Willow because her mom was a witch, so Amy has that inside of her naturally. Willow needed Tara's power to boost her own in season 4.All of the arcs for the characters are like that. Xander's saving the world was a huge part of an arc that we've seen hints of since season 1, and was really put out there for the first time in season 3's "The Zeppo". And his not being able to marry Anya was part of something that's been going on with him for a long time too. It's great to have the show written in a way that isn't rushed like most shows. Most shows would put all of this out there in season 1, and then have nothing left to do for the entire series. But this series is amazing. Each season is one long story that you don't fully get until the end (season 5, you'll love too, I think) and the entire series is also played the same way.
Dawn's first case of sticky fingers was in season 5. Just after Joyce died... I think it was "Intervention" when she was staying at Xander's place. She stole earrings of Anya's off the table.
I love Giles too. I didn't realize, like Joss said, how much we needed him until he showed up at the end though. The season needed him to be gone because it was all about Buffy having to deal with life on her own. If Giles had been there, he couldn't have watched her fall, and she'd have had a safety net. She needed to learn on her own, so while she really messed up a lot, she came out a better person... probably. I'd have to see season 7 to know :-)
Minor spoilers
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Giles will be back for AT LEAST 10 episodes this year. Woohoo!
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End spoilers
I wasn't a huge fan of the geek trio for a while. But I get them more now, and I can like them more because of it. Nobody thought they were a great threat, even Buffy. But then they ended up doing something that few enemies have done before. They killed one of Buffy's close friends. Warren went from annoying to being one of the most seriously twisted bad guys ever, and being human made them more creepy than if they were demons. I guess it kinda set up Willow too, in that she was the shy, weak little girl in high school that nobody would ever expect to fear, and then you piss her off and she almost destroys the world.
The show wouldn't be the same without Aly. She plays every angel of Willow perfectly.
Now to respond to TM:There are some things that I didn't like. Some of those were on purpose. Some not. I was never a Willow/Tara fan, but that's because I see that whole relationship from a totally different perspective than 99% of the rest of the watchers. And I wasn't thrilled that Tara was so selfish at the end, but I guess people can be like that.
I didn't enjoy Buffy and Spike, but I see why that was needed. The story was good and it depended on that to get it to the dark place. So I don't know where I fall in. If I judged it before I saw it or not. Either way, the show was great. I just hope Joss doesn't betray the Willow story by giving those insane Tara/Willow fans what they want instead of being true to Willow's story. It's more complex than those fans are giving it credit for, and I hope Joss doesn't back away from that complexity.
The attempted rape scene was one that I didn't enjoy watching because it was so uncomfortable to watch. But it's been coming. People say it goes against everything that Spike has done for the last two years, but I disagree with them. Buffy just gave in when she shouldn't have before. Spike has always been the same sick monster he was before. He's never been out for redemption. He's stalked Buffy, built shrines to her, taken her underwear out of her room, chained her up to try to force her to love him, and tried to get her to go to the dark side. He never came to the light side. And every time he thinks the chip is broken, he tries to kill innocent people. He was never a good guy, some people just wanted him to be.
Those extreme Willow/Tara fans really annoy me. Really. They are totally missing the point of the entire arc because they're too busy drooling over the hugs and cuddles. And most of the time, they aren't even watching the character or that relationship, they are just seeing a lesbian couple and are upset that their "role models" are gone.Why they see that relationship, or those characters as role models is beyond me. It was a very unhealthy relationship, no matter how you look at it.
I also hate when people say that Willow should have been evil for longer. First of all, it had to happen when it happened, or it would have been too soon. And secondly, she was evil for one or two days and she did more damage than most of the bad guys Buffy's faced in the finales. If she'd been evil any longer she would have either destroyed the world in February, or she would have been way less impressive because they'd have had to take some of her power away from her big evil turn and she wouldn't have been as cool.
All that said, I'm looking forward to the new season in a couple of weeks... and I wouldn't hate Willow and Xander to be together :-P
Info,
the W/X 'Shipper?
Date: 09/10/2002
From: ThomasMalthus
BT is confused to no end!I'm surprised that an Anya fan such as you would even consider W/X a possibility. To each his own, I suppose. Personally, I feel it would be as wrong as Angel/Cordy is on "Angel". Once you've sold the audience on one relationship between two characters, it's difficult to hook the audience on a very different relationship between the two. I wouldn't have been opposed to it in Season Three, or post-Oz in Season Four, but now they've built too strong a friendship for a romance to be believable.
Personally I think if Season Seven is the last one for "Buffy", Willow should stay single season-long. If they're going to go to eight or nine, they might think about putting her in another relationship near the end of the year. There's really no need to put her with someone new when the theme is "back to the beginning".
And as to Buffy 'giving in' to Spike before, but not doing so during the 'rape' attempt...she was the aggressor lots of times ("Smashed", "Gone", "As You Were"). 'No' does mean 'no', unless it's been established that 'no' can also mean 'yes' (witness Buffy's yo-yo treatment of Spike, similar to her relationship with Angel in Season Three). I don't buy the Buffy-as-attempted-rape-victim angle. The original whole point of this show was that Buffy wasn't the stereotypical defenseless blonde girl and I don't believe Whedon or Noxon intended to subvert that.
Now I'm not a B/S 'shipper (although that is cool to say), but it seems to me that Spike was intending to have sex with Buffy, not rape her. When it was clear to him that she didn't want to have sex ('no' meant nothing, only the violence registered, it's typical of their 'relationship') he left and didn't pursue any further. I don't see what makes that a rape attempt, unless you take it out of the context of their relationship (they regularly tore rooms apart doing it).
Whether or not Spike is evil is not an issue here. Hannibal Lecter is evil, but he is not a rapist. We've seen no evidence of Spike as a rapist, even though he's been frustrated in relationships before (Cecily rejecting him, Dru cheating with Angelus and then leaving him).
The real rape attempt of the season was Willow's mental rape of Tara. But I believe we agree on that one, so I'll leave it alone.
ThomasMalthus
Yeah...
Date: 09/10/2002
From: Informant
It's really hard to reply when the board is so sloooooow.Anywho...
Yeah, I wouldn't hate Willow and Xander. But that could come from the fact that I REALLY want to piss off those W/T fans that went nuts after Tara died. Besides, Xander's love brought her back! His love! And they haven't really been that close for a while, so it's not too weird.
Anyway, I love Anya. And Xander should get her back for sure. But I kinda want to see her bond with the group as something other than Xander's girlfriend. I want her to just be Anya for a while.
Really though, I agree that Willow shouldn't even mention anything about her romantic life for a good long time. She has so many issues, that's on the bottom of the list. When she does have feelings for someone, I wouldn't mind it being Xander. Because that was such a big part of the character before her act. And if the theme is getting back to the beginning, it would make sense. I don't know... the whole thing she had for Xander just ended too fast. One minute, she's crying in the bathroom because she found out about him and Faith and the next, it's like she doesn't even care anymore, except that I think there were some subtle hints that she still cared. Even in season 6.
I agree about Spike though. And the Buffy relationship. But it was an attempted rape because the way it played out, she was trying to get away from him and crying for him to stop, and he just didn't process it. So it would be rape, but in a way, Buffy got herself into that ditch. Which isn't a PC thing to say, I know. But in a way, it's true.
The fact that that was their relationship also goes to prove how twisted Spike remained.
Totally agree about the Tara rape. But don't forget Warren and Katrina.
The
W/X relationship...
Date: 09/10/2002
From: ThomasMalthus
...is much more complex than B/T.(And that was a reference to BT, not to any sort of Buffy/Tara relationship that some fanfic writer might dream up.)
Yeah, about the Faith thing...I think Willow was always upset when Xander would choose women who she considered beneath him. Although she was jealous of his attention towards Buffy at first, I think she would have been OK with them hooking up around Season Three or Four. But I don't think Cordelia, Faith or Anya met the high standard Willow set for her best friend.
As to the attempted rape, I just don't see the intent being there. If the intent was there, he would have went through with it. Attempted rape is all about intent, since there is no actual criminal action taking place.
Glad you clued me in on the board being slow. I thought it was just this temporary internet service I was using. I'm (sorta) glad I'm not the only one experiencing problems.
ThomasMalthus
geez
guys. Between the original post and
Date: 09/11/2002
From: eber3
your follow up replies I don't know where to start. I agree with a lot of what you both said.First off, I did like the season. The only thing I really didn't like was the W/T relationship; not so much because it was a gay one (even though I admit I'm not in favor) but because it seemed so out of character for Willow. She never showed even the slightest interest in girls, then "WHAM!" she and Tara are a gay couple. It just didn't fly for me.
I also wasn't a big fan of the Willow becoming evil thing, or for that matter of Willow becoming so strong in magic in general. Don't get me wrong, I liked the evil Willow kicks ass eps, but I'm worried that she can never go back to the "old" Willow. And that's the Willow I really liked, the shy sweet girl that was so easy to feel for. I said this before, but they (the writers) need to bind Willows powers and put a spell on her to make her no longer crave magic. That's the only way I can see her returning to her old self.
I said this before, but I would like to see X/W get together. It seemed meant to be at one point. And they are still best friends who care for each other. It wouldn't be the first time that friends realize one day that the love of their life has been right there all along.
As for the rape scene... I don't know. It could go either way. It's true B/S did always play ruff, Buffy even protested and said no before and then gave in anyway. Besides if Spike wanted to rape her he would have tried a lot harder, it seemed like he stopped as soon as he realized Buffy wasn't kiding. Still, this ones hard to call.
The trio, I loved them from day one. I think the biggest kick I had was the Star Wars horn on their surveillance van, and that Deathstar painting that Warren made them paint over! I did grow to hate Warren, as was intended I'm sure, probably about the same time he kidnaped, brain washed, abused, and killed his ex. I wasn't sad to see he die. I would like to see Jonathan return sometime, on Buffys side, not as a regular but just as an occasional thing. Unlike Warren he is good down deep, just spinless, and I'd like to see him learn from his mistakes and take the right path.
( Ok this has nothing to do with anything but it just popped into my head. How about one ep where Jonathan and Faith are under a spell or something and become an item. Of course this would be only a one time thing just for the sake of comedy. If done right that pairing could make for the funniest Buffy ep every. :P )
Hey,
who're you calling a fat ass?
Date: 09/11/2002
From: WarrenMeers
Last time I checked your web site, chubs, it took a crowbar and a vat of grease to pull you out of your desk chair.Love,
Warren
Good
Ship Willowpop!!
Date: 09/11/2002
From: SL4ever
BT doesn't deserve even a schooner!First of all, I must admit that I've never liked fan subcultures. If you're an X-File fan then you're an X-File fan ... I don't see the need to break it down futher to "MS shippers" and "non MS shippers" or whatever the X-File fan subculture devoted to them not getting together called themselves.
So now apparently there is the same thing with Buffy? People for or against Willow/Tara, for or against Willow/Xander? This is news to me but hardly surprising given what I have seen in other shows and their fans.
Personally I'd like to see Willow/Xander but if they were going to do that they should have done it earlier in the series. After Xander has run to so many other women Willow would have to be a total doormat to take him now. Hopefully she has more pride than that. Also, Willow going to a man now would invalidate her relationship with Tara and, unlike killing Tara off, actually WOULD be an insult to the gay community. Either she's gay or she isn't. Apparently, as someone said in this thread, little groundwork for her being gay was laid ahead of time. This is odd considering how good the series usually is in setting things up. So since you have no groundwork laid, you have to validate it after the fact, in this season coming up. Either have Willow not interested in dating (this is what I would do. She loved Tara too much to jump in the sack with anyone this soon) ANYone, or have her date a girl.
As for Anya, I've found her annoying at every turn. She adds a lot to the show, is very interesting, has some great lines, and is very amusing. But beneath the surface she annoys me greatly, right down to her voice. It's just personal, I don't expect anyone to share this viewpoint, but I have to say I was very pleased when Xander dumped her irritating ass. :-)
I also agree with TM, for GOD'S SAKE don't bring Tara back! She is >:-#-ing dead and that is how it should be. Don't get me wrong, it was very sad when she died, Willow's grief was heartbreaking, but resurrection under these circumstances is a horrid idea.
Speaking of resurrection, I've heard that Warren is returning in some form this season. What if Willow attempts to bring Tara back and the spell goes awry and instead brings Warren back to life???? That would be a great episode! :-P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll tell you though, every time I turn around (this time in Entertainment Weekly) Joss is talking about bringing the show back to its roots and paying more attention to Buffy as if there was something wrong with Season Six!! Stop it! Season Six rocked! Going back to the roots is fine, but stop inferring that you're "fixing" the series. It's in insult the fabulous writing we saw last year.
One more thing about while I was at DragonCon. At one panel we were talking about Stargate and how it has gone downhill. The X-Files going downhill was mentioned, and then Sliders. I then asked "Well, EVERY series lasting more than a couple seasons goes downhill. I can't think of a single dramatic series that was as great when it ended as it was in the beginning." The moderator immediately came back with Buffy. "That show is as good now as it was in the first couple seasons. I can see it ending as strongly as it begain." The conclusion we drew from that is that one man, a genius in fact, holds the reins. Joss has total control over his series and that is why it hasn't declined. The only potential hitch is how thinly he is spreading himself. We've seen with David E. Kelley what happens when you start good series and then drift on to the next thing. The abandoned series quickly start sucking.
PS. The attempted rape. I didn't buy the whiny "oh stop it you beast!" for a second. Buffy could have and repeatedly has crushed Spike like a grape. Even when she is under emotional turmoil her reflexes are superhuman. If they weren't she would have died many more than two times. Even if she didn't consciously resist Spike, her reflexes would have taken over and knocked him through a wall the first time she said "stop it!" I know what they were trying to do and I don't have a problem with Spike trying to rape her, but I just didn't buy it.
See? It actually is possible for me to find a flaw or two with the series, but I have to look very hard. :-)
PPS
to Warren
Date: 09/11/2002
From: SL4ever
BT needs to eat more PIE!! :-P~~~~~~~~~I didn't say being a fat ass was a bad thing! :-P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm elephantine and loving it! As such, I celebrate every time someone joins me in the over 200 pound club. There are two kinds of guys in this world, weak chumps who weigh less than 200lb, and men. :-P
I have only one vice. Food and tons of it! WOOOO HOOOOO!!!
"Let them eat PIE."
'Shippers,
Amber Benson and guest stars
Date: 09/11/2002
From: ThomasMalthus
BT won't be guest starring on "Buffy".Yeah, SL, there are lots of 'shipper groups. Tons. For people you or any other sane person would never think of putting together (e.g. Buffy/Giles, Xander/Angel, etc.) Of course, I'm sure there are lots of those among X-Philes as well.
I'll try not to be too spoilery here, but as for all the people who are supposed to be returning whose characters are dead, I believe their appearances will be more akin to the ones we've seen in the past (Ms. Calendar as an evil spirit in "Amends", Principal Snyder in Xander's dream in "Restless", Joyce in Buffy's catatonic visions in "Weight of the World"). The only exception could be Amber Benson, who I believe might be writing a script for the upcoming season. At least that was a rumor I heard at the end of last season.
ThomasMalthus
Hi
SL4ever
Date: 09/11/2002
From: eber3
First off, even though I'm the one who said I didn't buy Willow as gay, I don't think that her turning to Xander, or any man would be a insult to gays. Maybe she's bi, or maybe she is attracted to the person not the sex. I don't know but I don't see why her going to a man should be insulting to gays. I do agree that she should not jump right back into a relationship, with anyone. I can see X/W comforting each other, as friends, and slowly rebuilding the closeness that has been waning. Then perhaps at the end of the season it could begin to become something more with a true romance not taking place untill the next season."Well, EVERY series lasting more than a couple seasons goes downhill. "
I agree that that is often true. But one exception would be the newer Treks (TNG,DS9,VOY). Each of these got better in later seasons. Although Voyager did reach a plateau at about season 5. DS9 is the best example, I feel it got better with each season. The only bad thing was the original Dax leaving, and that was the actors choice. I just hope that Enterprise follows suite, because so far I have been very disappointed.
And
more replies...
Date: 09/11/2002
From: Informant
BT has B.O.!
Sorry if I don't hit every issue. I read this a while ago, but couldn't reply. So now I'm just replying to what I remember. I don't remember who said what.
I'll start off with the Willow/Xander thing, and that'll kinda fade into the Willow gay topic and Willow/Tara.Willow, in the early days, loved Xander. Not just as a friend, but she really loved him. And she was hurt badly when she saw how much he didn't love her that way. This would be one of the driving forces behind the whole arc she's been through. From dating Oz, which was used to not only up her cool points, but in some cases to kinda say to Xander "Look at who I can date". Like when she saw Xander and Cordy for the first time, and later suggested using Oz in the plan because "Oz has a van". An innocent line, delivered in a "I wanna make Xander jealous" kind of way. And it seemed to work, actually. A little. But she was never good enough for him. He went for someone he hated (Cordelia) before he'd go for Willow. And then Faith... he gave "it" up to someone like Faith instead of Willow, who obviously saw them sharing that moment together. And then Anya came along, but by then, Willow was caught in the whole other part of the arc, so it wasn't as big a deal. Still, it took her a good long while to warm up to Anya.
Willow wouldn't like Xander with anyone, really, because she always imagined that she would be the one he would finally notice. That's why she's always jealous, or hurt. And that's one of the reasons she changed herself. Cooler and more powerful. Just what everyone wanted (Other people besides Xander factor into this, but he was he the topic of this discussion). But then, in the end, his telling her that she is good enough for him, and he loves her no matter what, freaky powers or not, that is what brought her back.So it wasn't just that she was protective of him in a friendly way. It was that she was in love with him.
One could argue that she still has feelings for him, but they were hidden beneath the mask she's been wearing. As his wedding got closer, she began to make subtle comments about him. Not really big things, just little things that seemed to point out that the subject was on her mind.
Would it seem weird to have them become a couple? Not really. To me anyway. They were much closer in the first couple of seasons than they have been in the last few, and when it happened in season 3, it didn't seem strange. Just wrong in the sense that they were both seeing people. Bad timing.
Now, they've kinda grown apart, but Xander proved that he still loves Willow. On what level, I don't know. But he loves her. As they rebuild that connection, it wouldn't seem odd at all for those feelings to come back in her.
The reason I don't think that he suddenly switching teams again would be off is because the issue of her relationship with Tara and he switch in sexual preference is a complicated one. She did care for Tara. But the question for me is, how much?
The relationship wasn't a healthy one, in my eyes, since the start. When they first began hanging out, Willow was pretty much there for the magic. Whatever the subtext was at the time, Willow's power was taking a boost from Tara, and Willow loved that. This was a time when Willow had hit a brick wall in her progress as a witch. She needed a boost. Especially since Oz left, Percy called her a dork, and Spike seconded the comment. Willow was feeling weak, and hated being called a loser. This is why she's been putting so much space between her "new" self and her "old" self... even, eventually, refering to the old Willow in the third person.
"Let me tell you something about Willow: she's a loser. And she always has been. Everyone picked on Willow in junior high, high school, up until college with her stupid mousy ways and now - Willow's a junkie." - Willow, "Two To Go"Look at this comment for a moment. It really says it all. "Up until college", which is when Willow began her act (as seen in "Restless") and began changing into a new person who was as far away from the old (real) Willow as possible.
So what part did Tara play in this act? Willow once said that Tara didn't even know that Willow, so the act went back as far as their relationship. Tara not only provided Willow with power, but Tara looked up to Willow and made Willow feel like the super hero of the group. To Tara, Willow wasn't a small, weak little girl. Tara didn't even know that girl ever existed, as we see in "All The Way" when Tara is surprised to hear that Willow was a geek.While I do think Willow cared about Tara, I'm not sure just how she cared. And I have to consider the idea that Willow was with Tara as a means of putting more space between her and her old self, and gaining power. I don't believe that Willow cared about Tara in the same way that Tara cared about Willow.
Willow used Tara to gain her power. She altered Tara's mind to prevent her from thinking thoughts that Willow didn't like. It was never a healthy relationship, in my eyes, because it was founded on Willows addiction and desire to be someone else.
Willow going back to men wouldn't betray what she had with Tara, even if you don't agree with me about their relationship being unhealthy anyway. Let's look at it from an angle that I don't totally agree with, but will present anyway.
First of all, Tara is the only woman Willow's had those feelings for. Making Tara special to her.
It's not unheard of for a girl to date another girl, but when that ends, to go back to guys. Because they weren't interested in girls, just that one person.
Not to mention, it's college. It's not a popular thing to say, but it happens. People do things like that in college all the time, and when college is over, so is their desire for that lifestyle.Can she remain gay? Sure, I guess. To me, it would seem like a bigger betrayal of her character arc than if she were to be straight again. But it could happen.
However, I agree with those who say she shouldn't be in a relationship for a good long while anyway. This season, at least. She has other issues to work out.
If she did have another relationship, it wouldn't have to be with Xander either. Or Oz. A new guy could be brought in. A new girl could, but it just never seemed to fit the character, for me.
Wow
Informant. You summed up Willow
Date: 09/12/2002
From: eber3
perfectly.:) Good job. <end>
I
have had practice :-)
Date: 09/12/2002
From: Informant
NO TEXT. NO TEXT! NO FRIGGIN TEXT!!!!!
Original URL http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/545/1502316
Nominated by Blinker
