"Sing my lit'l songs." (Buffy Related)

Date: 09/28/2002
From: SL4ever

I’ve had little time this week so this is my first chance to talk about Buffy. First of all, how great is the new CD? :-P~~~~~~~~~~~ I’m annoyed that they didn’t include any spoken dialogue, but the sound quality and extra song snippets not heard clearly in the episode make up for it. I get the idea that the cast recorded the songs in the studio and then lipsynced to those tracks during the filming, adding their spoken dialogue in at that point. If that is true and the studio recordings (recorded as I said before the spoken dialogue) were used ... that would explain this lacking on the CD. In any case, the CD is fantastic.

“Lessons” was just as good, especially as Recall said the final couple minutes. If this is going to be the last season of Buffy it looks to me like we’re going to have our baddest assed villain of them all! And not only a badass but a tool through which any previous character can be brought back, as we saw last week. Historical figures can be slipped in (is that Humphrey Bogart lookalike actor still alive?) for humor or metaphor. Trust can became a major issue because you could never be sure who is really on your doorstep. Seeing Buffy fight herself would also be interesting. Seeing her fight her mother even moreso. As would her fighting John Ritter again. The possibilities are endless.

Assuming that what was saw was not all in Spike’s mind. We have no proof yet that anyone else can see these manifestations. If it IS all in Spike’s mind then Spike is this season’s badass, even if he doesn’t know it yet.

This whole Dawn the Vampire Slayer spinoff idea is interesting and I would definitely watch it, even if her two annoying friends are in it. But I don’t think it will happen. Unlike Chris Carter, Joss has always been faithful to the mythology. The long established mythology is that Slayers are not linked by bloodline. Not only is there not a blood link, there isn’t even a geographical link. One will be in China, the next in Africa, the next in LA, the next in the Caribbean, the next wherever. I’ve always gotten the idea that being the Slayer’s sister would doom your chances of ever being the Chosen One rather than enhance them.

In addition, Dawn wasn’t even born human. Because they could explain her becoming the Slayer by using her Key past but to me that alone makes it impossible for her to be a Slayer.

A Dawn spinoff series would work a lot better if they don’t try to make her a Slayer and just do something else with her. On the other hand, if anyone could think of a loophole it’d be Joss, eh?

Which brings me to Kit and Carlos. (that’s their names, right? I was so irritated with them that I didn’t get properly introduced) I have this fellow Buffy fan friend who is convinced that they’re the setup for a Dawn spinoff (or series continuation if SMG leaves). Of course, he also thinks that EVERY time an actor leaves any series it is because they wanted more money or wanted to do movies. It can never be an artistic decision. He’s a the most cynical TV watcher I’ve ever met.

Anyway, I don’t see it that way at all. The whole theme for this ep and this season is “back to the beginning.” Dawn represents Buffy (the real and only reason that I think she’s training for Vamp slayage), Carlos represents Xander, and Kit represents Willow. Obvious, yeah, but it’s supposed to be. If Joss were really grooming replacements he would riff on the originals, not copy them so obviously. He’d have two guy friends, or two girl friends, or three friends, or one of the friends be blind or deaf or something. No, the point is those three represent the circle of life. The next generation. Not cheesy spinoff setup.

So I agree with the comments that those two friends are going to remain on the periphery.

So, we had the monster countdown. Recall mentioned his two favorite villains. Who is your favorite villain? Mine is Dru because she is really really creepy. The actress who plays her is brilliant. I like all of them but she beats out the Master by a nose.

Least favorite of course is the Annoying One. :-)

PS. About Dawn's age, didn't she say in the Musical last year that she was 15? That would jib with her being 16 now.

She must be a sophomore

Date: 09/28/2002
From: Recall317

There were contradictory references inside of the episode. Dawn says this is her first day of high school, but Buffy says she's got 3 years left. Seeing as Dawn is 16, she should at least be a sophomore.

Sunnydale may have had a school structure where freshman (Grade 9) are still housed at the middle school. Considering Sunnydale High had been destroyed, it makes it all the more plausible.

As to Spike, the evil does appear visible to just him, implying it may be in his head. When Buffy finds him, Spike says it's just the 3 of us. Granted, Spike was rambling like a loon, but I think the big evil was in there the entire time.

We'll learn more on Tuesday!

R317

Making amends.

Date: 09/29/2002
From: ThomasMalthus

BT was always a worthless layabout.

Have you made it through Season Three yet, SL? If not, you should definitely check out "Amends", if what I believe (and what Hunter's been preaching at us for oh so many years now) is true, it should shed some light on the morphing bad guy situation. That said, I should point out that my favorite Big Bad is the Mayor. I still think he was the most dangerous of the Big Bads, and the most humorous. What more could you ask for?

Agree about Dawn's friends: there's too many strong characters to work with on this show for Joss and crew to waste time on the bland twins. I think they're just a solution to the complaint that Dawn has no friends outside of Buffy and the Scooby Gang. Of course, only time will tell.

A Dawn spinoff? Well, I'd watch too, but only assuming that the strong ensemble stays as well. Trachtenberg has talent, but I don't think she's good enough to sustain a show of this caliber without Hannigan, Marsters, Brendon and Caulfield, with ASH continuing in his recurring role, naturally. But I still think if they're going to make future seasons of this show (and not a new show) that SMG should have some part in it. The great ensemble aside, it is her show. If that's not going to be the case, I'd just as soon see it end after this year.

Recall: I thought middle schools were for grades 6-8 and junior highs were for grades 7-9. That's the way things are around here anyway. At any rate, I agree with your Dawn's-a-sophomore assessment, although it does seem to me like more of the Scoobs have summer birthdays than statistical probability would allow.

ThomasMalthus

I'm a Buffy fan too.

Date: 09/29/2002
From: DexterGoad

I think it's a shame that Buffy will probably end after this season. I doubt they will continue it without SMG. Unless she agrees to come back, and come back for a good price, it's the end of Buffy after this season. Though Buffy enoyed a lengthy run, and one without all the changes which plagued Sliders during it's run.

Faith

Date: 09/29/2002
From: Stax_

She mightn't have the complexity of Holtz, the charisma of Angelus, the wit of Spike or the sympathetic nature of Darla but she came DAMN close on all accounts. Faith, in my eyes, is the single greatest thing ME has ever done.

And you're right about the lip syncing.stax

An informed reply...

Date: 09/29/2002
From: Informant

Get it? Informed... because I'm Informant! hehe, I crack myself up.

Okay, replying to what I remember.

Yes, the songs were recorded and then played back for the actors to mouth to as they filmed the episode. This is how musicals have always been made, best I can tell. Though I do remember one actor who sang live way back when, and microphones weren't small back then. Provided all sorts of laughs.
The CD is great. "Under Your Spell" isn't cut off suddenly, which makes me happy. And I learned that Marti Noxon wasn't wearing any underwear, which was way too much info, but it explained why she's on leave now ;-)

As for the Dawn spinoff, it's still in question. They're not sure what's happening yet, and they're just working this story because it fits the story, not to set anything up. Marti just said all of this in an interview. SMG hasn't said no to returning yet, but she might want to at least cut back on her role. So if the show goes on, which the writers promise not to do unless they have the same type of ideas that they always do, it could involve Dawn, or even Faith, according to Marti. They're just not at the point where they're deciding anything yet. (though if I had to vote, I'd hope for SMG in at least 16 episodes, with Faith playing a major role. I don't want Buffy to become Mulder)
I guess they'd have to talk to Eliza about that. They haven't yet though.

If Dawn does go all fighter-chick, it shouldn't be Slayer involved, in my opinion. In season 5, it was said that the monks kept the Key around because it was a lot of energy that they wanted to harness, but they couldn't. So in the end, they were forced to create Dawn just to keep it out of Glory's hands. Now, in my opinion, Dawn could be like a lense. Bring that energy into focus, and use it (though, I'm hoping more in a brainy, easy to learn things kind of way, not a shooting beams of light out of her hands, and having super strength ind of way). Her spinoff should be called "The Key", not "The Other Slayer Named Summers".

As for the baddie, I agree with those who say it's the First. I've always known the First would play a huge role at some point (see my Buffy movie script, written a couple years back). It'll be interesting to see how this is handled if it is. How can you beat the First evil? My idea is that Buffy, the slayer, has the power within her to beat that evil. The slayer is made to counter the evil of the world, so if she can fully realize the power she holds within her, and the nature of the Slayer, she will be able to beat the First. (there are all sorts of things that link "Amends" to "Lessons", which is why I strongly believe it's the First)

I don't think it was in Spike's head. Mostly because the Mayor was there. Unless it happened off camera, Spike never met the Mayor knew about Spike, but I don't think they ever actually met. There would be no reason for Spike to make him part of his mental trip. Plus, this all fits with the First's pattern of manipulating people in this way to get what it wants from them. Like it did with Angel in "Amends".

PLEASE let it come back as Jenny again!!! Better still, let Jenny just come back. I can look past the continuity flaw of her being dead. I just miss her.

Wouldn't suck to see someone at least mention Kendra or Jesse again either.

I don't think Dawn's friends were too much like Willow and Xander. One boy, one girl. That much is the same. But personalities (or lack thereof in his case) were different. I'll give them some time to get into the roles. I've given others a while in the past. Willow still sounds funny to me when I watch season 1 episodes. And Angel... I'm still hoping David Boreanaz finds the character soon.

I don't know that I have a favorite baddie from the morphing scene. I liked seeing Glory again. The Mayor made me all kinds of happy. And Dru was a really great surprise, though I want to see the REAL Drusilla again. But really, I liked seeing them all.

What do you think of Willow? She was breaking some rules, but she seems to be getting better. I wonder how much power she still has though. She made the flower come through the earth, but then again, she said "I don't think I have that much power" at one point. So I wonder if she's lost some of it.

In the end, there can be only three!

Date: 09/29/2002
From: SL4ever

BT is a three party moron!!!

Recall,

I forgot about Spike's "three" reference! I remember at the time I was like "WTF?" but then things started popping and I lost track of that. Which is a good argument for Buffy not jumping his >:-# about that. That and the fact that he was loony as you said.

Still, it'll be interesting if she asks him about it Tuesday.

TM,

Where I grew up I was fortunate to have only two kinds of schools, elementary (1-8) and High School (9-12). This whole thing of changing schools every couple years is tedious so I’m glad I missed it. But I’ve heard that now they have it elementary (1-6), Middle School (7-8), and High School (9-12). I’ve always heard that Middle School and Junior High were the same thing only those names were used in different parts of the country. So you’re saying that in some parts kids now have to go to FOUR different schools? Jesus.

Anyway, I think you and Recall are right about Dawn's age.

That’s a good point about so many of the Scoobs being born in the summer, but it makes sense actually. People born in the summer are almost always extremely cool. >:-P All the Scoobs are, so it makes perfect sense to me. >:-D

Informant,

I don’t think that Willow is breaking the rules by using magic. (or did you mean not attending class or whatever she had skipped which prompted Giles to look for her?) Giles said that the coven said the magic is a part of her and that it always would be. That implies that going cold turkey was the worst thing she could have done. She needs to find a way to control it. That requires using it. If she uses it all the time and learns to control it she might be able to prevent what happened last time from ever happening again. Not using it, while demonstrating her gallant self control, was just running away. You can run away for a while but your demons will always catch up to you in the end. Willow has to face this and overcome it. This is all speculation, but that’s what I got from her being in England and learning from the coven.

That’s a very good point about Spike never meeting the mayor, this is a big argument in favor of it not all being in his head.

So what does everyone make of Adam referring to Spike as “Number 17” instead of “Hostile 17” as the real Adam (and the Initiative) always said? Does it mean that Spike is no longer a threat to anyone?

I haven’t seen “Amends” yet but it’s jumped to the top of my list with what you all have said! :-P~~~~~~~~~

Another reply...

Date: 09/29/2002
From: Informant

I think Dawn's 16. Joss said she's now the same age Buffy was when the show started, so that would mean 16. Plus, Buffy asked the principal if he wanted to suspend Dawn for three years. I'm guessing the lack of a Sunnydale High caused some sort of confusion in the system there.

Poor Dawn. You know she was working all summer on some of those lines she used in class, just setting herself up to be one of the cool kids, and then she has to go and look all crazy.

Willow was skipping her lesson. But at the same time, she was also causing a flower that didn't belong there to grow. Meaning, she was still breaking the rules of nature by bringing the flower through the earth. She has to learn to respect the rules more. She's doing better, but she has a long way to go still.
When they were talking about the coven fearing her, she used a line like "I don't think I have that much power". So I think that, while she still has some, she doesn't have the power she had at the end of last year. The dark magic, or the magic that Giles dosed her with (I'm guessing the other witches would want that back). As for the rest... All I want is for her to be Willow again. Plain old Willow who doesn't shoot things out of parts of her body (did that sound gross or what?). The magic was all about running away from who she was. So I really wanted her to lose it.
But I think that if that is to happen, it will take time. Like you said, she can't run away from the problem, but I don't want her to be super Willow anymore. Maybe, as life goes on, the power she had will fade as she finds her real power. The magic was always fake power for her.

If she does keep using magic, I hope she uses it as much as Tara did in season 6.

Not sure about the thing with Adam calling him "number 17". Could be like you said. Or could be that Adam never saw Spike as hostile toward him.

Grrrr... I have to wait for it!

Date: 09/30/2002
From: Slider_Sarah

That's not fair! But at least I have cable this year! Last year I had to get my sister back home to tape it for me off Sky, but cable will do, even if it ain't as good!

I didn't realise that you had two schools as well, SL! Over here, for the most part, we have Three, but I was unusual and only had 2. But only because my Infant and Junior schools were merged, But it still helped. For the most part our systems here are:

5-8
8-11
11-16/18 cos after 16 school is optional.

And sometimes the first two are really the same school anyway. There is some that have lower, middle and high schools, but only in certain areas of the country. I don't see the point in changing so often either!

I've only skimmed the comments, not having actually seen the episode yet (anyone know when it will come over here?)

I aways assumed they lipsynched to a pre-recorded track. I thought that was just the way it was always done so never even thought about it!

I do remember reading stuff where Joss was asked about a Faith spin-off. He said that if it did happen, it would be a very different thing from Buffy just because she is a MUCH darker character (I think she's fantastic though! My fave villain! And one of my housemates isobsessed with ehr)

I think I've heard him talk about a potential Dawn spin-off too, but I don't remember what he said and I don't have my sister's magazines to hand.

Sarah.
slider_sarah@hotmail.com

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