Pony up to this discussion!!

Date: 06/03/2002
From: SL4Beaver

In WOW we are treated to this brief nugget of alternate history:

MAGGIE: So, what's the story here?

QUINN: Something delayed this world's technological development by about a hundred and fifty years. Could have been any one of a million things.

Before I comment I have to say that the age old writer's dilemma is "I want this to exist" or "I want this to happen" or "I want these two people to meet" so "how can I manipulate things so that what I want will happen in the story?" How well a writer gets what they want realistically and without making the reader groan is how we should judge how good a writer he or she is.

In this case, JOC wanted the Sliders on an Old West world. Since time travel has been stated to be impossible, he settled for technology slowing down.

I sympathize with his problem of thinking up a realistic way to get what he wanted, but how good did he do?

Does this really work? Sure, anything in the past could slow down technological evolution. But the Old West as romanticized in zillions of movies and TV shows really only lasted about 30 short years and took A LOT of things happening to turn out the way it did.

Such as:

1) The Civil War. Not only the war itself, but the resolution being total defeat for the South, not negotiated peace that left two nations. The Spanish American wars and Texan Independence also had to happen.

2) The Europeans still discovering America first, unlikely if technology everywhere is 150 behind because that gave the Chinese another 150 years with the technology they already had for a thousand years to discover it first. For this matter, the Native Americans had another 150 years in which to strengthen themselves against invasion. Maybe in that additonal time their immune systems would get exposed to stuff that made them more resistant to Western diseases. Maybe another 150 years of distance from the old myths would have made the Aztecs dismiss their initial religious fear of the Spanish.

Making the Europeans discover America the same time as our history doesn't work either, because without our 1492 level of technology the Spanish would have gotten their asses ROLLED, as would any future invaders. And if the world had our 1492 level of weapon technology in their year 1492, why would the world be 150 years behind us in 1998?

3) Horses still being brought to America in mass quantities.

4) The Spanish dominating early and then crumbling.

5) Why 150 years anyway? Wouldn't it be more like 110? Is he saying this is pre Civil War Old West? If no, then EVERYTHING is wrong with the world portrayed in WOW!!

I'm sure we can come up with a lot more influences that would have to be perfect AND/or advanced 150 years in order to have a 1880s world in 1998. History just doesn't work this way. You could be technologically 1880 in 1998, but the social situation would be very different. Likewise, you could socially be 1880 in 1998, but the technological situation would be very different. It's hard to imagine everything (or even most things) being the same on a current time world as it was for us 150 years ago.

I think with a little creativity JOC could have come up with a much more plausible explanation for what he wanted. Why not just mention Guardian World and speculate it could be another deal like that? (I don't think that explanation was plausible either, but since you already have it in the show's past, why not use it?)

JOC engaging his brain???? Never mind. More chance of a neekid beaver leaping into my lap at this moment.

>:-#

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

http://zippyman.home.att.net/

Interesting....

Date: 06/03/2002
From: Slider_Sarah

Did you watch WOW this week by any chance?

And was the 'pony' bit in the title a reference to by obsession with My Little Pony? If not, then I've just managed to get people's attention!!! :)

I'd never really thought about WOW in that much detail. I have about certain others that also don't work at all (granted mostly season three :)

The thing is, most people don't bother thinking about that cos they don't know enough history. And I have to say I know very little about the wild west. My American history begins at 1860, but I never paid any attention until you get to World War One cos after that point is my specialist area generally.

However I do have a fanfic in the works where I actuallky started by working out a history back as far as 1830 in order to get where I wanted!! I'll show it to you sometime. That took a hell of a lot of work I can tell you!!! Which is probably the other reason why most of the writers didn't really bother.

I don't think it was JOC's fault really. Look at most of what had come in the past too seasons and its the same everywhere. And he wasn't much of a history buff by the look of things.

I think the only plausible explanation is the Guardian world one, but I didn't write it :)

Just one of those things I guess!!!

Sarah.
slider_sarah@hotmail.com

An idea

Date: 06/03/2002
From: gastrof

EVERYTHING happened on that Earth 150 years later than it did here.

Look at "The Guardian". The entire world was several years behind Earth Prime (and apparently identical in all other respects...except for the age and year differences, no others were noted).

The "still had the old west" world could have been even FURTHER behind.

Talk to Mr. Ed

Date: 06/03/2002
From: Recall317

A discourse is a discourse, of course, of course

SL4, Sarah probably nails this particular example when she says the typical writer doesn't know his history, so how can he devise a plausible chain of events? It's undoubtedly a weakness, and even history majors aren't immune to making mistakes when anticipating the vast amount of consequences a single change can instigate.

In "Way Out West"'s case, I don't think the author made much of an attempt to justify his alt-world. The story isn't about alt-history; it's a comedy with modest goals. JOC asks you to just accept the world 'as is' and that is made clear by his two line summary of its past.

But here's a question for you: does an author have to justify an alt-world? I don't think he has to in all cases. No one really inquired as to why the world of "Eggheads" holds intellect in esteem. There's no scene dedicated to finding a divergance from our own world. It's merely accepted, and this in no way hurt the episode. Rather, attempting to explain might have damaged the story.

For me, the fine line might be the nature of the alt-world. If the difference is cultural, then there probably is no impact moment. The world just evolved differently and you can get away with no explanation. If it's historical, then it's easier to locate the source of divergance. Nonetheless, it's not REQUIRED the author spell it out. As ThomasMalthus has illustrated, he devised a much more plausible and engaging backstory for "Time Again and World" just by the clues left behind throughout the episode.

I could discuss a lot of other aspects of this, but I think I'll hold back and see where this discussion leads. Maybe someone can give me a hook. ;)

Great discussion, SL4!

R317

Stop putting peanut butter in my mouth!!

Date: 06/03/2002
From: SL4ever

-Mr. Ed, E25741

Sarah, I wish I could claim to be that clever but actually I was just making fun of old Westerns where someone always says "Pony up to the bar" at one point or another. And no, I haven't seen WOW in probably 3 years, maybe longer. But I just started MSTieing it recently and when I do that my full evil attention falls upon an ep.

"I don't think it was JOC's fault really. Look at most of what had come in the past too seasons and its the same everywhere. And he wasn't much of a history buff by the look of things."
-Slider_Sarah

Personally, I think it IS his fault, but I don't necessarily think we can hammer him on this point. As Recall says, there is only 45 minutes of time in an ep and each second is valuable. But as Recall or someone else said (I'm sorry I don't have Blinker's Borg implant memory but I can't remember exactly who mentioned this) in one of those WOW MSTie replies, this ep is different in that it is a preview of what we would have had if JOC had been given his way and been named Executive Producer. So he has to be held to a little higher standard than the rest of the S4 writers because he thought enough of himself to demand that high position. (personally I don't see how he could have been any worse than Peckinballs and at least we would have been spared any more cast changeover but that is a thread for another post) How hard could it have been for someone of Jerry's mild fame and weight in the LA area for him to have gotten an appointment with a good history professor and told him the premise and asked how it could have happened. Anything that didn't fit on the screen could have been put online as an inside Slide. (but then we wouldn't have had that Kromagg roundup, would we?)

That's a general thing I would have done for each ep I wrote. But I'm a nerd who loves history and I would have been walking into the appointment saying, "Professor, what would have been all the changes resulting from the Emperor saying '>:-# Friedrich!! Burn Martin Luther!!' at the Diet of Worms in 1521?" I don't expect most people give a flying rat's ass about that question ... nor should they. I don't think you need to give a flying rat's ass about history to write a good Sliders ep.

But even if he didn't, the answer was still right there in front of him, as gastrof mentioned. In the same amount of screen time, Quinn could have said "Remmy, remember that world where I met myself in the past? I'll bet the same thing is going on here, only we're further back."

"But here's a question for you: does an author have to justify an alt-world? I don't think he has to in all cases. No one really inquired as to why the world of "Eggheads" holds intellect in esteem. There's no scene dedicated to finding a divergence from our own world. It's merely accepted, and this in no way hurt the episode. Rather, attempting to explain might have damaged the story."
-R317

You make a very good point with Eggheads. A lot of eps didn't take the time to go into why a world was the way it was. How do you do that, really, without something lame like Arturo picking up a newspaper and 30 seconds later knowing exactly where a time line diverged? In some cases years of study might not reveal the differences, especally the longer the Sliders are away. I'm a history loving nerd, and I don't know 1% of our world history or why everything is why it is. What would happen if I visited 100 worlds and checked out some of each's history? How long before I got too confused for it to make sense to even try anymore?

That grim reality aside, as I said before there is only so much screen time. So yeah, in a lot of cases the alt history wouldn’t make a difference. But personally, I think the writer should spend some time thinking about why a world is the way it is. What changes made what differences. Even if a character doesn’t outright say any or most of this, it could show up in various other subtle ways that would greatly enrich the story.

To more directly answer your question: When should a writer worry about the reasons why a world is different? When any reasonable person watching it is throwing popcorn at the screen screaming “That’s bullpatties!!” The main reason this WOW blunder is an issue with me is Peckinballs dismissal of such questions with “It’s a parallel world! Infinite possibilities, my friend!” Infinite possibilities? Sure? A world where magic is possible, defying the very laws of physics that make parallel worlds possible? Oooooookay. (And don’t throw “The Kindly Ones” up in my face, I have a long tedious explanation I devised to make it at least seem possible, most of which I fortunately did not include in the story but I HAD at least thought it out)

Plot/Alt-World Inverse Principle

Date: 06/04/2002
From: Recall317

Hey, it makes as much sense as the Helix Principle

SL4, let me float a hypothesis by you:

The stronger the plot of a Sliders story, the weaker its alt-world. The inverse is also true. (Thus, weaker plot, stronger alt-world.)

It's not natural law, but it just seemed to work out that way, didn't it? The first season had great alt-worlds, but when you rake a deep look at the plots independent of those worlds, they're not all that engaging barring a few exceptions. Basically it's run around, get in trouble, try not to die. This formula continues through the start of the 2nd season, except the alt-worlds aren't as good, thus producing some subpar eps. It's not until mid-2nd season that the plots take over...and the alt-worlds tail off.

"PTSS"? Fantastic plot. However to pull it off, it requires a weak alt-world. And by weak, I mean one that isn't as rich in texture. "Invasion"'s Kromagg outpost is also sparse. "The Guardian" is our world again, just a little younger.

Furthermore, a good plot could be distracted by a strong alt-world. You don't want to waste time with parallel differences in an ep like "World Killer." They're not the point. But if you have a piece of turd plot-wise such as "The Good, The Bad, and the Wealthy", your alt-world MUST carry the entire ep.

Now once in a great while, you have an ep with a knockout plot AND alt-world. The result? "Double Cross." Insta-classic.

OK, now start poking holes in the hypothesis. Maybe with work, we can discover the unified fiction theory of Sliders. :)

R317

The Sliders Dog and Pony Show...

Date: 06/05/2002
From: ThomasMalthus

...starring SliderSarah, SL4ever and NOT BT!!

Recall317 has a good point. When you have a good plot you want to get across, you don't want your plot points ruined by wacky alt-history scenarios causing problems. e.g. The Professor is disillusioned with sliding and Wade suddenly misses her family more than ever. Will they want to go home when another group of sliders gives them a way out? By the way, on this world George Washington invented Cheez Whiz to feed his starving troops at Valley Forge!

Similarly, you don't want your good alt-history story (that you undoubtedly spent a lot of time working on a timeline for, a la SL's and Recall's stories) obscured by too much character story. It's a delicate balance and one that can be maintained, but really if you have a good allohistorical yarn and a good character-driven plot, you're probably going to space them out.

From Earth 2013, "Stigmatic" I think is a good example of a nice balance. There's obviously pertinent alternate history (Native America got more than reservations here, Jim Thorpe was a socio-political leader) and good character stuff (Quinn in the hospital, the 'stigmatized' arcs, etc.). However in other such stories as "Rome Alone" and "Suspicion", where I want to concentrate more on character than on history, the history suffers (the public's big on historical theme parks and the guy who invented Cheetos is a psychiatrist; VR-type technology is more advanced and Elvis is a psychiatrist, respectively).

Ideally, you could balance character development with alternate history, but on some eps you're really gonna want to lose yourself in why this world is different. Similarly, some stories should best be left to character development only, with as little allohistorical content as possible.

Thomas"IRememberMyLittlePonyBecauseIWasRaisedinthe80sMalthus

SL4ever's a >:-#-ing MORON!!

Date: 06/05/2002
From: Sliding_Skull

BT is his dog AND pony!!

I like your hypothesis, Rec. I think what TM says to support it is also true. I hate to say this but you two have convinced me!

>:-#

>:-#-ing >:-#

Do you realize how much I loathe having to recant a JOC hammering?

>:-#

Well, ACTUALLY, the fact that you two are right that priority has to be placed on one or the other (well thought out alt world vs plot/character) doesn't change the fact that JOC could have referenced a previous story (which DID focus on HIS character, after all) and used that to explain WOW world without taking any more time or taking anything away from the current story. Added to Remmy's lame Detroit memory when an Ice World reference was appropriate and would have been great ... it is almost as if JOC went out of his way in this ep to pretend nothing before SF channel happened.

So all previous JOC hammering still applies. :-DP~~~~~~~~

But you are right I believe about the rest. The writer needs to make that decision going into a story and never look back. Doesn't mean you ignore alt world completely if you're prioritizing story/characterization, but you don't want to bog down a story with a bunch of my nerd history nonesense. :-)

My last two ponies...

Date: 06/05/2002
From: ThomasMalthus

...er, pennies. Curse BT!!!

Not to defend JOC, but it could have been Sci-Fi Channel policy to mention events in the series pre-Genesis as infrequently as possible (as evidence I present "Data World", with Quinn's all-S4 recollections). I'd have to defer to TF on that one, though.

Awww, let's face it. I just did it so I could make another 'pony' joke. I guess I really am a one-trick pony.

ThomasMalthus

All these Pony puns ...

Date: 06/05/2002
From: SL4Beaver

... are making me long in the face!

Quit trying to stirrup trouble, TM! You used to be such a stable poster, but I guess I can stall no longer. I shall have to nag you, as I would anyone who couldn't corral their unbridled passions for lame horse puns that should never be tolerated furlong!

Don't be so hard on yourself

Date: 06/05/2002
From: Recall317

JOC's not exactly in the clear.

While the Plot/AltWorld Inverse Principle may hold true, the writer still needs to deliver the goods. If you jettison the alt-world for the plot, then you better have one heck of a plot!

"Way Out West" fails this test. The plot is poor. Rather, JOC is reliant on using the alt-world to carry the episode. So he has violated our rule. The result? Weak episode.

I have criticized this ep as "The Good, The Bad, and the Wealthy" redux. We've covered this ground...violence isn't the answer, etc., etc. Not only did we cover this moral, we also did it with the same exact theme--the Ooooold West. At least in TGTBATW, there's an interesting spin on the West concept with the legalization of its principles in a modern world. (I didn't say it worked, but it was an interesting spin.)

JOC just drops you into the romanticized West with no real justification for doing so. The twist is the Kromagg...except it's incredibly obvious right from the teaser. And at this stage of the season, Kromaggs were losing their shock value.

Yeah, the Old West can be funny. Yeah, once you get past the cringe factor, a bunch of prospectors seeing along to "Tight Pants" is pretty damn amusing. But it's not going to be an elite episode. And it isn't.

R317

Three stories and the P/A Inverse Rule

Date: 06/05/2002
From: Recall317

Hypothesis...but "Rule" fit.

What better way to examine our hypothesis than by using three recent stories from the three of us most involved in this conversation: ThomasMalthus, SL4ever, and Recall317.

"The Trouble With Doubles"- TM. I chose this one over "The Originals" because I haven't begun "The Originals" yet. (I will get to it, I promise.)

"Trouble" is a character episode, even if for the most part those characters aren't are own. By our hypothesis, the alt-world should be muted. Indeed, it is. We have a more or less reasonable world that operates much as our own. It has different popular shows and other alterations, but it's a culture we'd recognize. If there's a historical split, it's not present. And frankly, it doesn't need it. The focus is on the journey where it belongs.

In addition, I'd also say this story is an experiment in story-telling. The changed perspective alone is worth major points and goes toward the Plot/character side of the ledger.

"The Kindly Ones"- SL4ever. An ambitious project, this story takes on the monumental task of Quinn's redemption. Its other grandiose purpose is to conclude the Sliders series in a fitting and appropriate fashion. The plot is crucial. As such, we'd expect the alt-world to suffer. And it does.

In my opinion, the bizarre undeveloped alt-world actually complimented this episode beautifully. So once again, the hypothesis holds true. With a dominant plot, the alt-world is secondary. And this story kicked serious ass despite what could be perceived as a massive violation of the basic rules of physics. :)

"From Earth Prime With Love"- Recall317. Of the three stories, this is most reliant on its alt-world. Why? Because its plot is very basic--get home. With that as the sole driving force of the main plot, the alt-world must carry the episode. In many, many ways, this resembles a 1st season episode for good or ill. And though an explicit divergence point is never established, there's more than enough info to convey what this world is about. And if you look very carefully, the reason for the Soviet Union's continued existence is available to the reader if they read between the lines.

Granted, I may be short changing myself. The real priority of this episode is to re-establish as much of the core series as possible in just one episode. And in my mind, that goal was accomplished.

It might be worth looking at stories/episodes we like that blantly break this principle too. As in, bad plot-bad alt-history, but still good and entertaining! "The Young and the Relentless" could be a candidate.

R317

Don't think you're off the hook, Rec!!

Date: 06/06/2002
From: SL4ever

BT should be hung from a hook!!!

I just need to finish reading The Trouble with Doubles and begin AND finish reading your Earth Prime before I can comment on your last reply. I intend to do both within the next day or two. :-P

As for Sliders eps, The Seer springs right to mind as a very undeveloped alt world in an ep where the plot sucked tons of ASS. Oh, wait, you said name one where both elements were weak but it was still an entertaining story.

Hmmm, what about Lipshict Live (or however it was spelled)? I think ep meets all the qualifications. I have a special place in my chamber of loathing for this ep because it was this ep that destroyed the original planned season long arc about Colin. >:-# Oh, sure, NOW the producers worry about one ep contridicting another??? If they cared about THAT so much why the radically different Kromaggs?????????????????????????????????

>:-#

Anyway, World Killer was entertaining despite the fact that the physics were shaking, the alt world development necessarily weak (except for stories of what happened after the Mass Slide) and the plot was infantile.

I'll think of some more. :-P

You filly foaled me this time!

Date: 08/10/2002
From: Ed_the_Horse

BT can't hold its horses!!

Colt you please come back here and make things more equine? I foally expected another hitchpost in this thread by now.

Ed_the_Horse

Lisa: At least I didn't waste half my life watching "Ed the Horse".
Dave: (angrily) It's "Mr. Ed"!
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