Invasion:
yes or no?
Date: 08/25/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
Here's an interesting question...I think we can all agree that Invasion was a great episode. Many people put it in their top 10's and some put it in their top 5's.
It was an amazing episode with great FX and a nice story to go along with it.
But it also set up one of the (later) worst villains in Sliders history. It was very innocent, but that episode, one way or another, led to the f-ed up "Kromagg Son" storyline, the Colin storyline, the end of Earth Prime, and more S4 episodes than can be counted.
So, I'm handing you a time machine. You can go back in time and erase Invasion from existance. Do you do it?
Do you take away the episode and force the S4 crew to look elsewhere for storylines? It could all end up worse, or it could all work out for the better.
That means there would be no Kromagg centered episodes, but it could also mean more episodes along the lines of "The Chasm" or "Easy Slider" which featured no Kromaggs.
But the S4 crew did come up with non-Kromagg episodes like "World Killer" and "Roads Taken". They might've tried to go down that route.
But then again, no Invasion.
So, what do you do?
Quinn
http://slidersweb.net/otherworlds/214
>:-#
Yes!!
Date: 08/25/2002
From: SL4ever
BT should be wiped from existence!!I'd go back and put a bullet in Invasion's head in a heartbeat!!!! :-P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<waving> Bye bye! Bye now! Enjoy your stay in oblivion! Bye bye!
An
interesting question
Date: 08/25/2002
From: TemporalFlux
Considering how close that was to actually happening. Torme's problems with Fox in making "Invasion" are pretty well known, but it's not generally known he also had some dissention among even the other producers (who were afraid the idea could too easily end up a Planet of the Apes imitation). So in reality, "Invasion" was almost not made.As for whether or not the episode should have been made...that's a hard choice on its face. "Invasion" in and of itself is a great addition to the Sliders library; but one can't deny the Kromaggs became a liability without the imagination of Torme present to sustain them. Would the damage have been lessened with the Kromaggs deleted?
I believe in the end a deletion would not have had as much impact as one may think. Most of the problems that occurred with the stories and actors were not related to the Kromaggs in the end...and I have to believe the Kromagg problems of later years would have just been replaced with something else along the same lines to help cover the true mess underneath. For me it's kind of like the arguments on gun control - would the world truly be a better place if we got rid of the gun? It wouldn't be...because the problem is the person behind the instrument and how he utilizes it...not the instrument itself.
So, I say let "Invasion" stay. If we're going to face the same problems down the road anyway through Peckinpah's involvement...we may as well keep the classics as part of the series and enjoy them. Great question, though!
Tf
temporalflux@hotmail.com
http://dimensionofcontinuity.com
wow
Date: 08/25/2002
From: Yeontoo
TF read my mind!!I think he's right. Invasion is Canon --Sliders Gospel. The guys who took my show down a bad path would've found some other bad guy/guys (notes Rickman)
Invasion stays (hey, I like Paradise Lost too!)
Blessings
Y
Keep
"Invasion"
Date: 08/25/2002
From: Stax_
though I'd be much more concerned about losing "Asylum". I think. It's been yonks since I've watched either and my taste in drama has changed considerably since.And as much as I want to avoid thread rot, especially political thread rot, I have to say that I ain't buying that gun analogy.stax
Invasion
Yes
Date: 08/25/2002
From: Shopman
I seem to remember reading in a newspaper somewhere that Torme said he wanted the Kromaggs to be recurring bad guys in Sliders when they did "Invasion". Perhaps TF can tell us why they didn't return in season three except for a brief mention by Quinn's double later on that season. I think the Maggs made good recurring enemies. I just think a lot of people didn't buy the Quinn is from another world and earthprime is under the control of the Maggs storyline. It always seemed to me that it was done to keep the group sliding at the start of season three. As TF mentioned, if not the Maggs, then it would have been someone else. Granted, the Maggs were overused in the third season, but I think Torme's idea of a recurring enemy for the sliders was a good one. And in reality, any recurring enemy had to be a person who could slide as well.
I
would keep it.
Date: 08/25/2002
From: JThunder101
I would keep the episode ``Invasion''As originally introduced, the Kro-maggs were interesting villians.
I would use my ``time machine'' to alter how the writers dealt with them.
If I remember right, they were introduced on FOX, but only really had the INVASION episode. I think they were mentioned down the line at a couple of points, but they really didn't figure back into the plots until the series was picked up on the Sci-fi Channel.
If I had it to do over, I would have made them more pronounced villians during the 3rd season and that would have changed how the writers dealt with them later on.
I thought they were a good foil that wasn't taken advantage of until the series went to Sci-Fi.
If the writers would have concentrated on them more in the beginning, I think a lot more stories could have been done with them and so on.
That is my opinion, I could be wrong.
JThunder101
Kill
it.
Date: 08/26/2002
From: DieselMickeyDolenz
But not for the reasons you might think.First, in the interest of full disclosure, I do not place Invasion in my top 10. Maybe not even in my top 20, though I've never made one. Still, my reasons for wishing away Invasion have nothing to do with my personal feelings toward the actual episode.
In my opinion, making Invasion may have been Tormé's single greatest mistake, and not because it gave the S4/5 team a crutch for their storywriting. No, I believe that we would have had a much better chance of Tormé keeping control, of *never* seeing David Peckinpah, and of staying on FOX had Invasion never been filmed. And wouldn't that have been better than simply removing the Kromaggs from the SciFi years?
I'm sure that TemporalFlux can correct me on this, but I think Invasion was the nail in Tormé's coffin with FOX. He rammed this thing down their throats, going over people's heads to do it. That doesn't foster good will with the people that you've bypassed. In addition, there's the story of how the FOX executive saw the show and said "this is exactly the kind of show we *shouldn't* be making." So at this point, Tormé had made a show the network hated *and* he had stepped on a lot of toes in the process of making it. What executive *wouldn't* want to make changes that would allow for greater control over what their money was being spent on?
DMD
A
good point
Date: 08/26/2002
From: TemporalFlux
DMD brings up a good point...but would it have changed things? "Invasion" did step on a few toes - that's a large part of the reason why it aired in the dead of summer...but as DMD noted, there were already other nails in the coffin. Ending "Luck of the Draw" on a cliffhanger raised Fox's ire to begin with...this is what helped throw Alan Barnette into the mix. Torme's battle to have the cliffhanger resolved in season two raised additional ire. "Invasion" was largely just a final step in a road that had already been well paved.In the end, I still don't think it would have changed much. Peckinpah would have still been offered by Universal because of his production deal...Fox would have almost assuredly still grabbed him (thus locking in Peck through season five all over again). The show would have still been moved to LA, and the micromanagement would have still encouraged Torme to leave at the signs of his father's bad health. Torme had already walked too far down the path...I just don't see it changing with "Invasion". It's an academic argument, though...who knows what even a small change would alter?
As for the Kromaggs in season three, that was again Fox keeping them out for the most part. Fox felt the Kromaggs were too much like Nazis for some reason and didn't want them in the program - and it's this Nazi belief of Fox that led to Peckinpah's understanding of the Maggs in season four. However, production was able to slip in that one small reference in "The Other Slide of Darkness". I do not of yet know the specifics of how that reference got past Fox...but I would guess it happened because it was such a small and non-integtral part of that episode. Considering they didn't shoot any new footage (just used "Invasion" clips), it may in fact be that Fox was as surprised as we were in seeing it in the final episode - there wouldn't be a large or obvious paper trail. I do know Kromaggs were not part of the original idea, however...it was something added in near the end of the process.
Tf
temporalflux@hotmail.com
http://dimensionofcontinuity.com
I'd
keep it too
Date: 08/26/2002
From: Slider_Sarah
I'd get rid of BT though!Seriously... could I use the time machine to get rid of BT instead? WHY did they ever bring that in anyway!
I'd keep Invasion. I like the episode, but more than that, I think the Kromagg arc, even though it got all messed up, was better than the Rickman arc, and that's the kind of thing we'd probably have been subjected to. Again.
By seaon 5, they seemed to already be getting stuck on Kromagg storylines. They may have been listening to the fans, but they've never really done that before! And we got Geiger instead. Which was too technical for my tastes, although it was better than Rickman.
Had they gone with the Colin spy angle, they wouldn't have shot themselves in the foot so badly. Tyhe problem with the Magg storyline wasn't that the epsiodes were particularly bad, but it seemed to be building to soemthing that never came. in season 4 or 5.
So I say keep Invasion because at least it gave them a semblence of a proper arc.
Sarah.
slider_sarah@hotmail.com
http://www.slidersweb.net/sarah/
Oops!
Date: 08/26/2002
From: Shopman
When I reviewed my post today I noticed that I kept referring to the events of season four as ocurring in season three. As everyone knows, the Kromaggs were overused in the fourth season, and it was that season that the producers needed a new excuse to get the group sliding again. I guess that's what happens when you post late at night. Sorry.
Keep
it!
Date: 08/26/2002
From: Blinker
'Invasion' must not be destroyed!!Hand over one of Torme's shining glories in exchange for a few slightly-less-mediocre fourth-season snoozes? NO WAY!
- Blinker 7:-)
http://slidersweb.net/blinker
"Just
Say Yes" to "Invasion"
Date: 08/26/2002
From: The_Seer
But BT says "no" to "Just Say Yes".****
First of all, I don't think the Kromaggs (even Peck's version) were the worst villians in Sliders history. I think hands down Rickman wins that honor. Second, "Invasion" is just too damn good to delete from Sliders history. Third, Peck would have still found some way to screw up the show. And finally, although Peck's Kromaggs were nowhere near as good or interesing as Torme's I actually didn't think they were THAT bad. Scary as this might sound, I thought they were the highlight of "Genesis" (more on that in a reply to a similar post below).
Keep
it, not Torme's fault....
Date: 08/27/2002
From: Grizzlor
The season 4-5 Kromaggs stunk. Would it not have been better for them to use a secret syndicate form of Villain Sliders? Ala Logan St. Clair. I realize this would have been ripping off X-Files, but something like this would have been better than the ridiculous looking and very boring Kromaggs. Torme's initial approach for them was like the comics' Zercurvians. Sinister, alien, secretive, cunning, dangerous, and very very evil. We don't see that with Peck's. He made them into a joke.How does Invasion effect that?
Well, I never thought it was a great episode. it was good, but I think it came off poorly from what Torme wanted it to be. After all, nobody unless they read the Sliders Comics and knew of Torme's intentions could have understood what the Kromaggs were supposed to be. So I would actually say that Torme was in error for making the Kromaggs so "big". I think he should have either used them in a more prominent role right away, or downgraded them. I realize he didnt get the chance to use them again, but I kind of feel Torme wasn't going to.
A better question would then be, why in the world did Peck have this fixation on an idea from one episode that he got wrong?????
The
only Kromaggs that matter
Date: 08/27/2002
From: sliderules
Even if BT doesn't matter at all.
I say Yes to Invasion because it was a wonderfulyl done Sliders tale. I enjoyed French world and how much it borhered Artutro, and I loved the whole Kromagg situation as well. This could have led to a wonderful new villian for the Sliders. Instead, it led to the worst villians in Sliders history.Not Torme's fault though. He laid the groundwork. Peckinpah simply paved over that groundwork and laid his own in Season 4, makign them into Nazis when they should have been Napoleon or The Roman Empire. If he hadn't, or if Torme would have stayed on, then things would have turned out differently and the Kromaggs would have ended up being the threat they deserved to be.
That is why I would keep Invasion.
sliderules
"In France they speak French, in England they speak English. In America they speak American? No, it's English! Confused? So am I."
Give
me Invasion or give me death!<end>
Date: 08/28/2002
From: Joey_Starr
JS
It sounded good before I posted it!!!
Original URL http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/545/1502197
Nominated by Slider_Quinn21
