Something
that dawned on me (SR)
Date: 06/13/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
There's something that I was wondering about the timer(and I'm too lazy to see if there's an entry for it at the DoC).Now, in the Pilot, we all know why the Sliders got lost. Quinn opened the vortex too early, which reset the timer and loses the way back to Earth Prime.
Now, I know that the original timer didn't have the capability of assigning coordinates, but something started to bother me.
The original timer couldn't store coordinates, but it has to have some sort of storing capability to remember its original world just because it remembered to come back to Earth Prime after Elvis World.
So, I guess my question has to do with what happens when the timer resets. Quinn wasn't stupid. He knew that there were several parallel worlds(on Ice World, he knew there were at least four. And I think he always knew there were millions, he was just trying to make the others feel better with his "six" talk).
And, I don't think he would've added a manual switch to the timer if he didn't intend on using it (Did he actually need to "start up the vortex" or could he have just pressed a button?).
So, I guess my question (finally!) is when the timer actually resets. Because, the way I see it, the timer had the capability to go to a certain world its programmed to go to before it could store coordinates (because the Sorceror did it in "Mystic"), and I think that the timer would've went straight home.
Have I confused everyone yet?
Basically, did the timer reset BEFORE Quinn turned the dial?
Because, the way I see it, the timer would've remembered that the Sliders were supposed to go home, even though the gateway was opened early. Of course, right after the vortex opened, the timer would be reset, but (again, the way I see it), the timer should've at least made one more correct vortex.)
But the way it happened, the vortex went somewhere else.
So, if I haven't confused everyone, can someone try to explain this to me. I'm pretty sure I'm wrong in my theory (I have to be), but here's one last question that would answer everything if you didn't understand anything before...
If, in "Pilot", Quinn had entered coordinates to Earth Prime, would they have still ended up on Russia World.
If the answer is yes, then the timer actually resets BEFORE the vortex opens.
If its no, then the timer resets after like I've always thought, and they ended up on Russia world because of a problem with Quinn's timer...
Anyone? TF?
Quinn
http://slidersweb.net/otherworlds/214PS-If I've confused everyone, I'll try my best to try and repeat myself as best I can :-)
Um,
an answer. I think.
Date: 06/13/2002
From: DieselMickeyDolenz
There's no answer for BT!As I understand it, the opening of the vortex early corrupts the timer's memory, so it does posess at least storage for one set of coordinates. There's no electronic or computer-related explanation for why that should *have* to be so, but we see later in the series that it's a rule for *all* sliders, not just those using Quinn's limited design.
From what we see in the first few episodes, it seems that Quinn's timer only calls up the coordinates for the next world (or return trip) when the timer reaches 00:00:00. Since the timer had not reached 00, the coordinates were not called up, and our heroes went to Russia world instead of home. Opening the vortex early requires tremendously more energy from the timer than waiting for time to expire (I've never heard a satisfactory answer for why that would be, either). That extra strain might create a power surge that could corrupt the timer's memory.
Now, what can we take from 'Into the Mystic'? The Sorceror is able to "pre-set" the timer to return to Earth Prime. So the original timer had the ability to store multiple coordinates, but no way to manually enter them or to call up a specific stored set. Only the with the Sorceror's equipment was that possible. But where did the Sorceror get the correct coordinates? Weren't they corrupted in the pilot? Maybe not. Maybe opening the vortex early only corrupted the timer's *access* to its memory, and maybe only for that slide.
As I said, this still doesn't address why other Sliders would have the same restrictions. More experienced Sliders, such as the Egyptian royalty from Slide Like an Egyptian, would certainly know how to construct a better timer. One that doesn't get corrupted from opening early. It's almost as if the thinking on the show went from a design problem to the idea that sliding windows are a physical law of sliding.
Now that I've confused myself sufficiently, I think I'll stop.
DMD
Makes
sense, but...
Date: 06/13/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
There's no "but" about how much BT sucks!!!!I agree that there probably wasn't enough information on the show, and once Torme was out, all bets were off. We can safely say that SOMETHING would've been explained had Torme been in charge, but we'll never know what...
My thinking is that, no matter what happened to the timer, the effects of it wouldn't have happened until AFTER the slide. Or, at least, after the vortex opened.
Now, Quinn knew that multiple dimensions existed. That's safely said. He also knew that he couldn't access his own coordinates. So, I think that he knew that he'd have to slide from one world, back home, and then to the next. While that's inefficient, exploring-wise (oddly enough, randomly sliding would cover the most area in the shortest time), that's how he had to have seen it. Its obvious that Smarter Quinn slid this way.
So, Quinn had to have built the timer (or at least manipulated it) so that that's how it would work. Whether he's activating it manually or whether he's allowing the timer to "suck" him back in.
That's, at least, how he understood it.
So, wouldn't the timer only know of one place to go? Wouldn't the timer have enough energy to make one last slide? Because the way the show seems to work, the timer was reset completely, lost the coordinates to Earth Prime, and chose a whole new Earth to travel to as or before Quinn turned that knob.
That just seems like a lot to happen BEFORE the energy is used. If its all about an excess use of energy, wouldn't all the problems happen AFTER the vortex is created. And wouldn't the timer only know of one place to go before all that happens? Wouldn't it take more energy to find a new world than to just use the stored coordinates.
Now I'm confused... :-)
But more questions now. Now, I know the answer to all these would be "Because there wouldn't be a show if it worked differently" but try to think differently
Why would Quinn bring the timer with him, if he really didn't need to? All other tests indicated that there was no need for the timer, except to OPEN the vortex. The basketball didn't need the timer to come back. And he certainly didn't need it for any other reason but to know how much time he had left. But its not like he had any choice when to leave.
Was it just like a watch to monitor his time on each respective Earth? Why chance breaking it?
Smarter
Quinn and more
Date: 06/13/2002
From: DieselMickeyDolenz
but not more BT. Enough already!>>Wouldn't it take more energy to find a new world than to just use the stored coordinates.
I think it would. And once long ago I made a post suggesting that this was why the timer fried when a vortex was opened early. And it's not inconsistent with my earlier answer, at least it isn't meant to be. If the coordinates for Earth Prime were in a memory chip rather than being actively used by the timer when the timer is manually triggered, the timer would have to open a wormhole to a random world. Creating that wormhole would require additional power and end up corrupting the memory. The automatic setting doesn't have the same results, because it automaticly loads the coordinates back into the processor *before* opening the vortex.As far as what Quinn knew he'd have to do to get home. I think you're giving him too much credit. I think it was his intention to always return to Earth Prime following each trip through the wormhole. If he'd had several sucessful trips through the wormhole and back, he probably would have added more capabilities, but I don't think he had any idea that he might need to travel to multiple worlds before returning home. Smarter Quinn seemed to travel the same way, I thought. He went from his home world to Earth Prime and when his time was up, he went back home. When Quinn asked him if he could choose which earth he travelled to, Smarter Quinn's response was, "No. At least, not yet."
Regarding why Quinn took the timer with him. I've asked the same question myself. Since the way things worked with the basket ball and the trip to red-means-go world suggest that the timer is irrelevant for getting home, I have no idea why you'd even want to bring it. We never see Smarter Quinn's timer, so maybe he's also smarter there, too.
DMD
When
confusion abounds...
Date: 06/13/2002
From: ThomasMalthus
...BT is sure to be there!!TM steps in to make some very confused comments.
I don't know anything about the technology of the timer so I'm avoiding that topic like the plague. But as to the subject of why Quinn took the timer with him...he might not have meant to.
I haven't seen "The Pilot" in a while, but didn't the vortex that took our Sliders to Iceberg World just envelop the three of them? Maybe Quinn didn't mean to take the timer with them and he was going to leave it in his basement until the vortex sucked the three of them (as well as Rembrandt and his Caddy) to another world.
Now, he did take the timer with him on his first slide, so that does undercut my theory a bit. Still, perhaps he wanted a portable piece of the sliding technology he had created, just in case something did go wrong.
One thing I've never understood is, how can the timer itself open wormholes? Don't portals have to be opened by the sliding equipment in Quinn's basement? Because if the timer can do it by itself, why even bother to have the equipment?
Just another point to ponder.
ThomasMalthus
TM's
right (more)
Date: 06/13/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
But BT is never right. Not even about sliding theories!I forgot about the eveloping. He really may not have meant to bring it. And he brought the timer with him on Elvis world just in case. Maybe he thought he'd need it to return for some reason.
DMD...
Maybe I do give Quinn too much credit. But here's something to ponder.
Smarter Quinn was on his 10th slide, right? Maybe 6th, I don't remember. And he knew about the helix thing, right? So, why didn't Quinn know. This was his second. And I don't see Quinn (smarter or not) doing a whole lot of repair in between slides.
Was Smarter Quinn that much smarter than our Quinn? He really might've been. Quinn seemed to stumble upon things. But if that's true, why did he and Arturo find out what was wrong three slides later?
I think that Quinn and Arturo should've stepped in when Rembrandt demanded they open the vortex. The technology was too experimental and it had already acted strange twice (sucking them in and then moving to suck Rembrandt in). And Quinn knew something was very important.
He should've looked deeper into the timer before testing it again.
So, back to DMD's thought. Maybe Quinn's nowhere near as smart as Smarter Quinn. Or maybe he's just way too naive. Either way, Quinn moved way too fast.
So, DMD, you're saying that if you stored coordinates, and then reset your timer, your slide would work and then you'd lose everything and have to slide randomly?
That kinda makes sense. You're also saying that everything is wiped out as Quinn turned the timer early. That also makes sense.
But it begs the question again. If Quinn was so close to figuring out all that (Summer of Love), why didn't he even think about not doing it?
Its too bad...
Quinn
http://slidersweb.net/otherworlds/214
A
hard question to answer
Date: 06/14/2002
From: TemporalFlux
So I'll take the easy parts first! :-DOther Sliders weren't necessarily bound by the "recall" rule per se'...at least not to the point of getting lost. In the case of Rickman for instance. While there is some argument as to exactly when he advanced his timer eliminating slide at will, we do know Rickman advanced his timer at some point (the chip burn out in Other Slide of Darkness coupled with the "same rules now" mention in Dinoslide). The thing is that Rickman's timer had a huge memory storage capacity. Rickman had the coordinates for every world he had been to...including his home (Exodus earth..err...asteroid field). The problem he would have in missing a slide window after his advancement would be that he couldn't slide again for 29.7 years. This was a power problem...not a coordinate problem. However, there are other qualifications there as well...Rickman had a much bigger power chip than anyone else. He could do more non-equipment supported sliding before his timer would ultimately burn out (and I'll cover the "basement" equipment role in a second).
Next we have the Egyptian timer. I do believe they would have the technology and foresight to give the timer a more massive memory to hold coordinates...but what was the true purpose of the timer Quinn found? Going by the script, this timer was stolen from the pharoah's possesions by the architect...and the time was counting down to exactly when the pharoah's funeral was supposed to be the next day. Coincidence? The Egyptian culture believed in a journey to the land of the gods after death...enter the timer as a headpiece for a sarcophagus. A timer built for a one way trip...sending the pharoah back out to the "gods". At least, that would be my theory why that timer possessed the same limited (or maybe even non-existant) memory capacity like the original timer.
But now we have our real question...what is the recall feature and how does all this equipment work. Well, this is an ever revising line of thought with me. There are so many minute details that can make a crucial distinction to the interpretation that it is hard to sort out and keep cohesive.
DMD has already hit several of my thoughts on the subject. For one, I believe Quinn had set up a system that could only work basically one way. No real redundancies in place. In effect, this creates a situation similiar to a computer. With Windows, if you turn off your computer without going through the shut down procedure...the next time you turn your computer on, there is a scan to see if any files have been corrupted. Quinn didn't go through the procedure he had set up...he confused the system in his timer...and some files became corrupted (namely the limited memory that held the coordinates for home). However, that information wasn't lost...it was just no longer accessible without special equipment. In fact, this became a plot point in "Double Cross". Using Logan's computer, Quinn was actually able to reconstruct every coordinate laced in his timer's memory...one of which should have been the way home for him. They just never had the opportunity to complete the search.
But what about recall? Well, it has also already been noted that you don't need the timer to be recalled. I don't know if I really believe that...and there's one reason why which I've thought about recently. How did the vortex find Quinn outside of his house on Elvis world? He slid in from the basement...but the vortex opened outside and sucked him back? Also...there was no burst from the timer opening it...it just appeared.
Under this new thought, believe the basement equipment connection comes into the recall function.
Blech...Part
2
Date: 06/14/2002
From: TemporalFlux
Weird...computer screwed up and posted when I wasn't finished (and I wasn't near the post or enter button...very strange).Anyway:
Under this new thought, I believe the basement equipment connection comes into the recall function. We clearly see that Quinn fires a beam in his basement to open the vortex before sliding. The power is obviously coming from the timer to do it. However, when we see the recall vortex appear on Elvis world...the timer doesn't fire. How was the vortex opened? Well...enter the basement equipment.
Quinn would have not have discovered quantum signatures yet. Not only did he mention this new discovery in season four, but if he knew of quantum sigs...they could have immediately went home by scanning themselves. That leaves the timer. The basement equipment opened the retrieval vortex and homed in on some signal created by the timer - a type of dimensional "homing beacon" if you will. How was it sending it this beacon? By recording the "coordinates" to Earth Prime in its memory and transmitting back down the path it came through (which falls in with my theory that weaknesses are left in the dimensional fabric after sliding - hence the reason vortices so often opened in the last location a vortex had closed on a given world).
Of course, this brings up the fact that Smarter Quinn did not have a timer...or did he? Did we see inside all of his pockets? He could have easily been carrying one. Without the timer present and a homing beacon of some kind, though...we are left with a rather unpleasant notion that somehow the vortex is either homing in on specific people (which is a jump in tech in my opinion) or that somehow the vortex has a mind of its own.
So basically...the timer was meant to operate doing one slide at a time. The basement equipment was to give the ride back home. Once they advanced the timer...not only did they corrupt the system (like a shut down neglect), but they also caused the timer to suddenly have twice the workload it was designed to have (Rickman's timer of course designed to handled much, much more of a workload). Obviously this double use of the original timer led to faster burn out and ultimately a system of the Helix Spiral theory to conserve power.
This leaves the "pre-set" bit from "Into the Mystic" (a follow up on the equipment revelation of "Eggheads"). How did "pre-setting" the system help? What does "pre-set" or "auto-set" even mean? First of all, I believe Quinn first gained this line of thought in "Last Days" while working on that basement equipment (that's why they didn't search for that answer before that). They also abandoned after "Into the Mystic" because they were left thinking it didn't work. In effect, I believe what they were proposing was a "reboot" of sorts. Just as Windows keeps an archived version of memory so you can start over after some types of crashes...the timer could have worked in this respect as well. By "auto-setting" the system, they were tricking the timer into believing it was back at square one. This would re-establish the "beacon" function...and with the help of the Sorcerer's own vortex equipement, the path could be cut following the signal's lead.
In any case, in some respects these are different theories than I've proposed in the past. However, I thought I would float them to see if they hold up to scrutiny. As I said...this is a difficult question and always has been. The smallest overlooked detail can vastly change the entire line of thought.
Tf
temporalflux@hotmail.com
http://dimensionofcontinuity.com
One
problem with your timer theory, TF
Date: 06/14/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
There's more than one problem with BT, I'll tell you that!What about the basketball Quinn sent through? He didn't send the timer with it, and its very possible that someone picked the basketball up and moved it(especially if someone was in the basement when it arrived).
I think that the equipment had some sort of detection system (like you said) and it sucked up anything that slid through.
But what if the basement equipment was more advanced than Quinn thought? What if they needed a beacon, but what if the beacon was the objects (a basketball or a person)?
In other words, what if the equipment could detect the quantum signatures, and it would suck up anything with the same quantum signature.
I always wondered what would've happened if the sliders had split up after the Ice Slide (if it had gone the duration). Would two vortexes open and suck them in to the same place, or would the first one just suck everyone in?
Its definitely a controversy, but I love to read your ideas!
One
more thing
Date: 06/14/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
I'm not going to do a BT thing this time... Well, I guess I am! ;-)I don't remember if it was ever said on screen, but do only humans have quantum signatures?
Because that might throw my thoery out of whack...
I'm basically looking at "World Killer." The Slide Wave only sucked up humans (wasn't there a dog on the "dead" world?). All the cars, and buildings were still there.
Which leads me to another question. How the Hell does the vortex tell whether or not its going to pick up inanimate objects. In the Pilot, the vortex didn't pick up anything in Quinn's house, the house itself, the fence, or anything else before getting Remmy's car. It didn't just grab Remmy, it also grabbed his Caddy.
So, we know that inanimate objects CAN slide, but it seems to be completely random.
The slide wave seemed to pick up only humans but it also picked up clothes. If it only picked up humans, wouldn't that mean that clothes would be left behind (kinda like the Rapture from the "Left Behind" books)?
I know that there's no real answer, but its very strange. Even think about almost every slide we see. We see it very "windy" and we see leaves going all over the place.
We know from "As Time Goes By" and other episodes that the vortex does "suck" people in at times. The way the vortex manipulates leaves would make you think that leaves would be sucked in too. But we never see it happen.
TF? ;-)
Quick
observation...
Date: 06/14/2002
From: Blinker
BT sucks harder than any vortex!!> In the Pilot, the vortex didn't pick up anything
> in Quinn's house, the house itself, the fence, or
> anything else before getting Remmy's car. It didn't
> just grab Remmy, it also grabbed his Caddy.> So, we know that inanimate objects CAN slide, but it
> seems to be completely random.The way I always interpreted that, the vortex was only attracted to and able to interact with moving objects. Not only does it float through the blackboard, ground and fence without affecting them, but as soon as it's outside it actually *changes direction* and makes a beeline for the DeVille.
But there's no scientific basis for such a rule, so this is where I leave it to greater minds than my own to rationalize one.
'night,
- Blinker 7:-P
http://slidersweb.net/blinker
A
good catch
Date: 06/14/2002
From: TemporalFlux
And probably why I didn't go to the theory previously. I had forgotten about the basketball while writing this last night, and it obviously didn't have a timer with it. The only qualification I could offer is that the basketball didn't "move" on the next world...at least not outside of the basement. In that instance, the vortex wouldn't have had to open anywhere else like the Elvis world incident...it opened up at the same position and the basketball was just there to be sucked in.The problematic part you illuminated with recall and the theory I proposed last night deals with the pull back feature. I didn't consider something you brought up. The vortex obviously isn't pulling back everything in the immediate area, so we're left to feel it is keying off quantum signatures. Another thing Quinn discovered by accident and never realized he had until years later? Very possible considering how the rest of this came together.
As for quantum signatures, the way they have been used in general dimensional fiction is that they are in everything from a given universe. Every molecule from each universe "vibrates" at a frequency native to that singular dimension. These "vibrations" are also what keep the dimensions separated and how they are all in the same place at the same time. So anything from Earth Prime (organic or non) would have the same quantum signature...and nothing outside of Earth Prime should have that same signature.
A similar principle was used to sort out the World Killer mess...but it was more of a broad stroke. In World Killer, they scanned for "sliding signatures". Basically, this laid out that anyone who had traveled between dimensions would be "marked"...in effect, carrying some of the new "vibrations" from the alien dimension on top of their own native "vibrations" (but never enough to mask out their native). Why use such a broad stroke? Well...our Sliders had to go back to the empty world too lest they break their sliding circuit (introduced in Invasion - they can only slide out from the world they landed on when time is up). In order to slide out with the residents of empty earth, they had to use something that would take them too.
We're also left to believe that the slide wave and recall takes back anything on your person along with you. To have it otherwise could get very messy...including one issue brought up long ago about "sliding abortions" as a result of World Killer.
Given how quickly Quinn took to this idea of sliding signatures in World Killer (the broader stroke than quantum), it could be this is basically what he used in his recall feature. Recall was pulling back anything that slid recently...then he refined it World Killer to pull back anything that had ever slid at all (a more sensitive approach).
On the moving vortex and objects entering, I believe that the vortex only exerts a certain amount of force in taking in things. In other words, enough to take a person or something moving in that general direction...but not enough to pull up a rooted bush or a chalk board that won't fit. As for changing direction for Rembrandt's car...well, I look to Lipschitz Live. It's mentioned there that the vortex has a magnetic anchor. Well...when the power was amped on the vortex in the pilot, I believe power was drained from the anchor to accomodate. So, the vortex began to move forward...and once outside it found Rembrandt's car. An old Deville...the good kind when they made those things solid metal. ;-) Given that one car probably more to attract to than anything else in the area...the vortex began to drift that way with it's moving magnetic anchor. Just a theory, but makes ya wonder...
Tf
temporalflux@hotmail.com
http://dimensionofcontinuity.com
Someone
ask for me?
Date: 06/15/2002
From: Recall317
This conversation is dizzying for me! Every other sentence has the word "recall" in it. I guess that's what I get for naming myself after fiction. :)As for the topic, I agree with practically everything. I think the original device did work off quantum signatures, albeit without Quinn's expressed knowledge. It explains the basketball and himself returning. You don't need a timer on you to be brought back so long as the timer is functioning properly. SmarterQuinn may have had a timer in his pocket, but he probably left it at home as a precaution to prevent himself from employing it in emergency.
Of course, the entire nature of the game changes once the timer has been corrupted and most of that has been worked out by TF, Nigel Mitchell, and others.
As for the "magic" vortex that captured Rembrandt, I think it screams "plot contrivance" and I leave it at that.
Recall317
Original URL http://www.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/545/28057
Nominated by Recall317
