Another
piece of the PTSS puzzle?
Date: 10/17/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
I'm sure this has been mentioned time and time again, but I wanted to make sure.This might not even make a difference in "Which Arturo Slid", but I have two observations from today's viewing...
1.How would the Arturo in the basement know about Wade's Diary? If he was in the basement from the beginning, how would he know? I doubt his double would tell him...
And another piece that might help...
2.The Wrong Arturo wouldn't want to sort it out after the slide because he'd be in a worse position than before. He might get left on Medieval World or Cannibal World.
So, I think that proves that the "Like Hell We Will" Arturo is the wrong one. Because he'd be defrauded in a matter of minutes after only a few questions.
Of course, the "My God" comment is the best evidence IMO. But this might unlock some of the mystery...
Again, sorry if this is older than the episode itself...
Other
Revisionist History
Date: 10/17/2002
From: Recall317
I didn't see anything that changed my opinion of the Arturo situation today, but I did hear something I'd somehow overlooked before. Remmy tells his psychiatrist that the rerelease of "Cry Like a Man" sold more copies in its opening weekend than the original single did in 16 years.16? Assuming Remmy is referring to the lifespan of the single, that would mean he recorded it in 1978 (if we imply that Rembrandt could only track the single up through 1994.)
Judging from "Sliders", the track had to have been cut prior to '73 when "Toppless" went gold.It's not a big thing, but it supports the idea that "Into the Mystic" wasn't refering to a reunion tour when Remmy says he last performed with the Topps in '86. It's like history was being rewritten once they realized how old Rembrandt would have to be if he went solo in '73.
R317
Debate
is part of Torme's genius
Date: 10/17/2002
From: Grizzlor
I've always said you could argue both sides, that Wrong arturo or real one slid, just based on events or facts or even theories in that episode! That was the best part of it all. Me personally the best part of the whole thing was that Torme put that into the story and left it unclear. After all, if Torme wanted you to believe that the right one slid he would just have the wrong one defeated for sure in the episode. but he didn't, he left it unclear, which proves that Tracy intended for the question to one day be resolved. Having whoever didn't slide one day come back to take the one who did on!As for the actual episode, another great part is the end where the arturo left behind says, "Oh My God." You could easily say that was the real one saying it for being left behind, and at the same time could be the wrong one saying it after seeing what the vortex looks like. that is great.
Interesting
points
Date: 10/17/2002
From: Shopman
To tell the truth, I always figured that the Arturo native to Azure Gate Bridge world would have never said "Oh my God" if it were him who missed the slide. That seems to me to be something only the real Arturo would have said. Slider_Quinn21, your point about the Arturo being held captive in the basement knowing about the diary is a good observation. My thinking is this: There would be no point to raising the question about which Arturo went sliding with the group unless it was going to turn out that the wrong Arturo went along. Why this was never resolved I have no clue.
It
was never resolved, Shopman, cuz of
Date: 10/18/2002
From: gastrof
a couple things. Peckinpoop got in control and wrecked the series, and JRD left.
Why
it was never resolved...
Date: 10/18/2002
From: Slidemania
As early as Season 1, John Rhys-Davies had expressed that he would probably leave the show if the storylines didn't improve. Torme was obviously aware of this, and probably had the Wrong Arturo slide so that *our* Arturo wouldn't have to be killed if JRD left (which he did indeed do in "The Exodus"). That way, the door would still be open for JRD to make possible guest appearances even after his departure (although that obviously didn't happen).
"Our
Arturo" Slid
Date: 10/18/2002
From: Slider_Paul
Theres no need to worry. "Our" Arturo was the one who slid. The father/son type relationship he shared with Quinn continued to show throughout the season. And in his dying scene his last thoughts were about getting the rest of the sliders home. If this was the wrong arturo he wouldent of cared, as he was twisted and evil and was only after fame and money as the farther of sliding.Theres always the possibility that our Autro dident die and managed to slide off that ill'fated earth before it exploded. That's what it boils down too. Hoping that "Our" Arturo is still alive somewhere. If sliders returned with Arturo this is how he would be written back in.
For now we will just have to enjoy the adventures of one of his other doubles, the little one with the giant axe who's currently on a quest on earth 343432. The people who live there call it "Middle Earth":)
Slider_Paul
I
think you misjudge PTSS Arturo
Date: 10/18/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
But you can't misjudge BT. It just sucks!PTSS Arturo isn't evil if you ask me. He seems like a desperate man who realized he made a huge mistake with his life (not sliding). He's tried to reinvent sliding, but it didn't work.
That might've frustrated him, but I don't think it made him evil.
Now, he did lie, cheat, steal, and eventually take his double's identity, but these were all signs of desperation. He felt that he deserved to be a part of sliding, but that he missed his chance.
Think of it this way. Say, you had the chance to go out with your dream girl, but you were afraid to ask. Then, years later, she comes back into your life, and you discover that she feels the same way about you.
Even if she has a husband or a boyfriend, you'd probably do anything to get her back if you've been THAT obsessed.
Afterwards, you'd go back to your "normal" self. Sure, you'd be with the girl and you'd be happy, but you'd also feel bad for doing what you did to get there.
Its the same with Arturo. He was willing to do anything to get the power of sliding because he felt he would never be able to. He played off Arturo's evil side to grasp an opportunity, but I don't think he was evil.
PTSS world was just too similar to Earth Prime for the two Arturo's to be so drastically different. I just think that Arturo was a desperate man going to desperate measures to get something he felt he deserved.
Besides, PTSS Quinn had a relationship with PTSS Arturo. This is obvious because Quinn invited him like our Quinn did in the Pilot. The only difference is that PTSS Arturo chickened out.
So, I assume that Arturo was similar enough for Quinn to completely respect him. And Quinn probably wouldn't respect Arturo if he were completely evil.
Now, one of the arguments AGAINST the "PTSS Arturo Slid" argument is that Arturo never admitted anything. Or, really, he never even hinted at it. I think that PTSS Arturo would feel bad, especially since he made such a drastic change so fast.
But, again, if he said anything, the group would probably abandon him, and that would do him no good.
*Whew*
Bottom line, I don't think Arturo was evil. And I still think the wrong one slid. There are too many subtle (and Torme loved the subtle) references to prove it.
Quinn
http://slidersweb.net/otherworlds/214Its coming...
Good
point, Paul.
Date: 10/18/2002
From: Curlytop
Very valid point, Slider_Paul. If the wrong Arturo slid, would he really have worried about Quinn getting the others home? Probably not. In fact, he may have been more concerned about clearing up the big lie he had been living about being their Arturo before he passed on. But I also think that by the point "The Exodus", part II aired Peckinpah was firmly in control and the decision was made to abandon the wrong Arturo subplot. So by that time it was in fact the right Arturo who was traveling with the Sliders. If Torme intended the wrong Arturo to have made the trip that decision was reversed by Peckinpah.
By
the way:
Date: 10/18/2002
From: Curlytop
Everyone out there may be interested to know that Slider_Quinn21 is actually ThomasMalthus, breaking his "no trolling" rule that he set up a while back. Payback, my friend, payback!
response
from me to your points
Date: 10/18/2002
From: Grizzlor
first, i agree the PTSS Arturo was not Evil. He acted completely like an ass in the episode. After which, because it was not determined who slid, they had to continue to write Arturo as they did before. It wouldn't have made sense to make Arturo this evil guy. What point would that make??? However, I DO believe that it is EXTREMELY evident that a change takes place in his personality after PTSS!!!! In the episodes which followed during Season 2, Arturo acts much more inquisitive, more calm, more patient, and much less prone to bickering with the others. The changes in emotion and action in Arturo before and after PTSS are definite ones. Season 3 you can't even count because Torme was rarely involved at that point. The possible Arturo switch, like The first Kromaggs, and other things, were admittedly little in jokes or points of controversy that Tracy put in to have fans debate or be more interested in. The Arturo sickness you mention was rumored and later I Torme sort of admitted that the Tumor may have been linked to the Kromaggs tracking device had he still been heading the show. Never did Tracy admit he intended to kill Arturo because John was not pleased! In fact, Rhys-Davies never said he was seriously considering leaving. He was displeased, but even when he would say things like that, he would stop short of saying he's leaving. his departure was completely on Fox's behalf. And I repeat, why would Tracy make the switch a possibility without one day looking to come back to it??
And then, even after tracy puts the sick Arturo thing out there, Fox's boys go and basically get rid of it TWO episodes later in Desert Storm.
Exodus
p2 question then....
Date: 10/18/2002
From: Sabre_Edge
If it really was the wrong Arturo that slid, wouldn't you think he would
have given a "death bed" confession?
I really don't know which one slid...I just think the wrong one might have said something as he laying dying from a gunshot wound.
"Quinn.... I... I... I am not the Maximillian Arturo that you originally... set out with. I can't die with... the truth being left... untold. Get the others... home... and... forgive me..."
Well...
Date: 10/18/2002
From: Slider_Quinn21
BT needs to be shot, so it can confess how much it sucks...Remember that Arturo had his brain fluid sucked out. He could barely form words and sentences that made sense (why DID he say "Sliders" as his last word? I know he's a slider, but huh?)
I don't think he was thinking straight. He might not have realized where he was, let alone how to die with a clear conscience.
Like I said earlier, I think he was probably afraid of what the others would think. He realized what a great group of people they were, and how he cheated his double. So, he probably knew he had made a big mistake.
And he probably wouldn't have wanted to mess that up. Because you can imagine how mad the group would be if they found out their Professor was stranded. He'd probably be left behind.
So, you can imagine why he wouldn't say anything. Even when he got so "close" towards the end of Season 3...
PTSS
Arturo was more of a coward
Date: 10/19/2002
From: TemporalFlux
While SQ21 already hit on the positive similarities between our own and the PTSS Arturo, there is another facet left unmentioned - the crucial difference. PTSS Arturo was not as brave as ours (and ours wasn't exactly a knight).PTSS Arturo was afraid to take the chance and travel with his group. PTSS Arturo was also afraid someone else would double cross him (which is why he fled to the country to work alone on the secret of sliding). This same fear came into play when he saw our group arrive. Did he try to talk to them truthfully? He was afraid to...he took the "easier" path with deception. When that fell apart...what happened? He was afraid to admit the truth...he decided to run away from his problems instead of facing them.
That particular running trend continues... As guilt began to weigh on PTSS Arturo, he started asking to be left behind. "Rules of the Game"...afraid to try, asked to be left behind. "The Guardian"...afraid to try, asked to be left behind. "Exodus"...did Arturo try to push Quinn out of the way? No...he casually stepped in front of him. It was almost like he wanted to be shot. He didn't want to try...just be left behind.
An argument can be made that Arturo's season three actions were consistent with PTSS Arturo. PTSS Arturo would not own up to what he did...he would run away. That's what season three Arturo kept trying and ultimately did.
Of course, from a production stand point...nobody cared about the PTSS question after "The Guardian" when Torme was gone. All we can do is infer things that are there and make it work. However, Torme has all but said they took the wrong Arturo in PTSS:
http://www.earth62.net/transcripts/torme10jan00.htm
With nothing later to firmly contradict that (and there isn't), the ball still lies there. The wrong Arturo slid.
Tf
temporalflux@hotmail.com
http://dimensionofcontinuity.com
Food
for Thought.
Date: 10/19/2002
From: Shopman
TF, those are very astute observations about the PTSS Arturo during season three. One thing which may have made "The Exodus" part two more interesting would have been if, as Arturo was dying, he did confess to being the wrong Arturo. This would have left open the possibility of a JRD return appearance and a hunt for the right Arturo. It's a shame the writers missed this opportunity.
Sabre,
Torme was gone by Exod 2
Date: 10/19/2002
From: Grizzlor
I realize that just judging by the onscreen content, you are right in saying he should have confessed.Who knows, as stupid as this may sound, That wrong Arturo could have told them he was the wrong one before then and they accepted that. It sounds stupid, but possible.
The point TF was alluding to and what I said before is that from a behind the scenes or INTENT point of view, Tracy created the character, created the possible switch, created the sickness or possible Kromagg tracking device, etc. The changes in the character, whether intentional or not, were clear after PTSS during Season 2. In season 3, Torme had very little to do with it. He wrote the Guardian, but admitted he grew tired of fighting with Fox over every little thing. After The Guardian he says he basically left. He watched Exodus in horror at home I think, calling it the "worst 1 hour television show I've ever seen."
and with the uncertainties, I think you gotta say that the wrong one slid, so that we can say the first one still lives.
This
will never be resolved.
Date: 10/20/2002
From: Joey_Starr
BT is unresolvable.This will never be settled among us because despite an kind of good logic(on either side), no one will be likely to give up ground until there is a definitive resolution to it. Either a movie, episodes, official books, or direct public confirmation from Tracy and/or Robert that it was so. Tracy won't budge because he loves this kind of controversy among fans of his show(can you blame him?). Robert probably doesn't know what Tracy had in mind OR enjoys it the same as Tracy. Either way, this debate will go on forever.
As much as I hate to just agree with TF, I have to say that he is totally right on this one. Here are some quick points to swallow on this:
1) It would be very likely that while in captivity, the Azure Arturo would brag to his double about his deeds. This includes using Wade's now public Diary to know of those adventures. So up to the fight, it could be either one.
2) Azure Arturo was NOT evil. Just a selfish coward. If he was evil than he would have killed or arrange to kill not only his double(remember Azure Gate bridge world didn't yet know about doubles so he could have gotten away with it regardless) but also our heroes who would expose him as a fake(not a wrong Arturo because they didn't know yet, but as a non-inventor of Sliding).
3) I think that the Arturo that left the Arturo residence was NOT our Arturo because he would not have the guts to come after them to get the timer. Remember how he even got someone else to steal it from Quinn's house?
4) Going with the Azure Arturo not being evil theme. Once sliding with our heroes he became very emotionally attached. You have to remember that as it is, this Arturo was not much different than ours. In the Pilot, our Arturo didn't think it was a good idea to go sliding either. He let his scientific curiosity get the best of him. On a different day, he may have made the same decision as Azure Arturo. Didn't they say he backed out at the last minute? That means that he was considering it. So with this in mind, coupled with the fact that Arturo is a Genius of vast resource and experience(not the Quinn level Genius but still amazing). This allowed him to play the charade long enough to pull it off. Even after 18 months, our sliders didn't know Arturo intimately enough to make the connection too easy. We can also play the denial factor in here as well. They didn't have a way to go back if they discovered he as a wrong one. Quinn had the best shot at figuring it out but he was already swimming in guilt. The idea of leaving his mentor stranded would have been too much so it was easy to just except this Arturo as the real deal until something specific shows up, with a hope towards NOT finding out. After sharing a few life-threatening experiences, people tend to grow together. So by the time season 3 came 'round, this Arturo loved the sliders just as much.
5) As Grizzlor(I hope I had this right) pointed out, there was a change in attitude after PTSS. Our Arturo was so sick of sliding and fed up with Quinn that it would show up often in his bitching. This fizzled or stopped afterwards. This Post-PTSS(say that 1o times fast) had more patience, was more inquisitive, etc.
6) In the Guardian, there is the infamous Football knowledge debate. Was this an overlooked detail by Torme' on his LAST real work on this show? OR was it a plant to maybe bring up later? That is debatable. When brought up to Torme in chat as a way to prove the wrong one slid, he responded with, "You may have something there[paraphrased]!"
7) Exodus which was batting a thousand with continuity as is(sic), had an Arturo that almost couldn't speak as he was dying. If YOU were the wrong Arturo in that situation and could only say a few words to the people you loved and bonded with the past year, would you rather piss them off and make you're good-bye a bitter one? Or would you say what you really wanted to say, which is what he did?
8) Uh, whoever made the remark that Arturo might have slid off that planet before it blew up? He was dead already. The only slide he made was the one from Maggie Prime to heaven! Sorry, but if that was Arturo then he is gone forever.
9) More props to Grizzy? Why make it a possibility if it wasn't intended to come up later? In which case why would it come up if they had the right one?
Curlytop:
Dude, please! It doesn't even matter if what you said about TM was true or not. It has NO place in this thread. You want to expose him? Start a new thread appropriately titled to do so. I will be more than happy to read what you have to say. Others do not wish to can avoid that thread. In this thread they are tricked into seeing it. You have been tolerable for a while now. Please don't start acting like a troll again.
I think I made all the points I wanted to, but I probably left something out.
JS
Damn, that was longer than expected!
Original URL http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/545/4065361
Nominated by Slider_Quinn21
